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  1. #1
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    Default Rumor: Joe Dumars and Lawrence Frank will be fired after season




    Kobe Bryant will take 6-9 months to recover from Achilles injury, but there is no doubt the LA Lakers star will be back - Page 2 - NY Daily News

    The Pistons arenít in the playoffs for the fourth straight season and theyíve been irrelevant for a lot longer, as theyíre almost 10 years removed from their championship season under Larry Brown.

    Itís been a long run for team president Joe Dumars, but league sources say that Dumarsí reign will soon be coming to a close. Dumars is so entrenched and such an iconic figure from his playing days, weíll believe it when we see it. But it sure sounds as if heís on his way out, along with Lawrence Frank, who is finishing his second season as coach.
    Piston Powered has info on the reporter pushing this rumor.

    Report: Joe Dumars and Lawrence Frank will be fired after season, according to sources writer doesn’t absolutely trust ę PistonPowered

    Lawrence has been an NBA columnist for the Daily News since 1995, so his time in New York overlapped with Dave Checketts, who served as president of Madison Square Garden from 1994 to 2001. Checketts, if you donít remember, was brought in by Gores as a consultant when he bought the team.

    So, itís certainly plausible Lawrence has sources who know Goresí thinking.

    Itís also certainly plausible Gores will fire Dumars and Frank.

    More at the link

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    Unfortunately, this would be the right move....I'm fine with Frank going, and in theory I'm fine with Joe going too...but I can't help but have the "Devil you know..." feeling about it. Joe no doubt had a huge hand in what this team became, but he's also the guy who built the team that won 50+ games 7 straight years, been to 4 ECF's, 2 Championship series, and one title. He seems to be clueless about how to hire the right coach though. What ticks me off is that Dumars passed on hiring Laimbeer back when he hired his last 3 coaches....With each coaching failure, the taking chances on a guy like Bill becomes harder and harder.
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    By the way...calling the Pistons "irrelevant" for much longer then 4 years is bull-cocky
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    I think it just has to be time, they haven't been able to get any better since their big "FA signings" years ago. And how sports are always WIN WIN WIN, I don't see how they can keep Dumars anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuNk42AE View Post
    I think it just has to be time, they haven't been able to get any better since their big "FA signings" years ago. And how sports are always WIN WIN WIN, I don't see how they can keep Dumars anymore.
    Dumars is the prime asset of the organization, I doubt Gore jettisons him before he gets his shot at rebuilding the team. His last effort at rebuilding was thwarted by the death of the owner, and the franchise was put in a hold pattern until a new one was found. He's cleaned up in the draft pretty well since then (without being at the top), and he's cleared tons of cap room. Dumars definitely is getting one more year for sure, unless he's done something egregious/non basketball related that we aren't aware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    Dumars is the prime asset of the organization, I doubt Gore jettisons him before he gets his shot at rebuilding the team. His last effort at rebuilding was thwarted by the death of the owner, and the franchise was put in a hold pattern until a new one was found. He's cleaned up in the draft pretty well since then (without being at the top), and he's cleared tons of cap room. Dumars definitely is getting one more year for sure, unless he's done something egregious/non basketball related that we aren't aware of.
    Funny you brought up the death of Davidson. In my memory Dumars was well on his way to creating a mess and then used the death/sale as an excuse. I could be wrong on the timing.

    Dumars lost his touch or the eye he brought to the job. He made some great moves to shed contracts and bring guys in, including Carlisle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    Dumars is the prime asset of the organization, I doubt Gore jettisons him before he gets his shot at rebuilding the team. His last effort at rebuilding was thwarted by the death of the owner, and the franchise was put in a hold pattern until a new one was found. He's cleaned up in the draft pretty well since then (without being at the top), and he's cleared tons of cap room. Dumars definitely is getting one more year for sure, unless he's done something egregious/non basketball related that we aren't aware of.
    Dumars had his shot to rebuild the team and blew it by not trading for Rondo, inexplicably extending Rip days after trading Billups and using the cleared cap space to sign Gordon and Villaneueva. He also incorrectly saw Stuckey as a point guard, which influenced subsequent draft selections.

    As to his efforts to rebuild the team being thwarted by the death of Davidson, I'd say 95% of the fault lies with him, because he was the one who put the team in a bad way just before Bill's passing.

    EDIT: I would also say the prime asset of the Pistons right now is Andre Drummond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    Dumars is the prime asset of the organization, I doubt Gore jettisons him before he gets his shot at rebuilding the team. His last effort at rebuilding was thwarted by the death of the owner, and the franchise was put in a hold pattern until a new one was found. He's cleaned up in the draft pretty well since then (without being at the top), and he's cleared tons of cap room. Dumars definitely is getting one more year for sure, unless he's done something egregious/non basketball related that we aren't aware of.
    Definitely getting one more year? He is either getting multiple years or none, that is the way you should look at this. No way they give him one more year with all the cap space available. Why would they risk Joe wasting all the cap space on junk players?

    Dumars has been a disaster for about 8-9 years now. It is definitely time he is fired, I want to see them clean house and come in with a fresh regime. Dumars is an awful GM and he has proved that time and again throughout the last decade.
    Last edited by T&P_Fan; 04-15-2013 at 09:22 AM.

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    With $25M in cap space this offseason, Gores will either fire Dumars or sign him to an extension. It doesn't make sense to have an lame duck GM at a pivotal point of a team's development.

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    Not to sound like a jerk, but I am truly baffled anyone would defend Joe Dumars as a GM at this point given the last 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth View Post
    Not to sound like a jerk, but I am truly baffled anyone would defend Joe Dumars as a GM at this point given the last 5 years.
    Can't disagree Biggs. I am not even that much a fan of Drummond. To me the only thing that argues Dumars isn't gone is that Gores didn't broom the whole crew at the purchase, which to me said that, inexplicably, there was something Joe was doing that Gores liked.
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    I hope Joe does not go...besides being my favorite player as a kid I think he is doing what he can with what he has. To not think his hands were tied at crucial points the past 5 years or so from ownership is folly IMO.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Can't disagree Biggs. I am not even that much a fan of Drummond. To me the only thing that argues Dumars isn't gone is that Gores didn't broom the whole crew at the purchase, which to me said that, inexplicably, there was something Joe was doing that Gores liked.
    We still don't know what Gores' true intent for the Pistons is. We all hope he wants to build a winning franchise at all costs and will be an attentive owner in that regard. Other the other hand, the Pistons might just simply be a part of his overall portfolio, and he doesn't really care that much about winning championships as long as it turns a profit. This offseason (along with time in general) will give us some more insight into that area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I hope Joe does not go...besides being my favorite player as a kid I think he is doing what he can with what he has. To not think his hands were tied at crucial points the past 5 years or so from ownership is folly IMO.
    It not what he wasn't allowed to do that indicts Joe, it's not his inactions that have done in the Pistons as much as the player choices he's made with what he has been able to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    To me the only thing that argues Dumars isn't gone is that Gores didn't broom the whole crew at the purchase, which to me said that, inexplicably, there was something Joe was doing that Gores liked.
    It could simply be that Gores wanted to get his feet wet and learn the ropes, so to say, before hiring a GM.

    I remember Mike Ilitch once saying one of the biggest mistakes he made as an owner of the Tigers is that when he purchased the club he brought in a number of his own people and he wasn't listening to the guys he retained who had a lot of baseball experience. That news got out in the baseball community and his guys were basically frozen out / outside the information pipeline with the league and other clubs.

    So maybe Gores is protecting against that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I hope Joe does not go...besides being my favorite player as a kid I think he is doing what he can with what he has. To not think his hands were tied at crucial points the past 5 years or so from ownership is folly IMO.
    His hands were not tied when he foolishly gave Gordon and Charlie V all of our cap space money in the summer of 2009. Will also be without a first round pick in the near future because of Ben Gordon.

    His hands were not tied when he put this organization on the fast track for failure, he has to go.

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    Also didn't Gores say at the begining of the year that the Pistons would be in the Playoffs Guaranteed? I'm thinking holding the 5th worst record (currently) is a bit away from that. And it isn't like this record was caused by injuries.
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    I can only hope this is true.

    You have a high draft pick, a ton of cap space, and multiple tradeable contracts going into this off-season. So, you either keep Joe for 3-5 more years or you let him go right now, because the decisions made this summer will affect the team for years to come.

    While we all have the fear that someone even more incompetent could be hired, I still believe it's time for a change. You have to try to make this team better.
    Matt Millen never left Detroit - he just started wearing a very convincing Joe Dumars costume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I hope Joe does not go...besides being my favorite player as a kid I think he is doing what he can with what he has. To not think his hands were tied at crucial points the past 5 years or so from ownership is folly IMO.
    Is it ownership's fault that he picked Darko over several perennial all stars (potential hall of famers)?
    Is it ownership's fault that he jettisoned Billups with minimal return and held onto Hamilton for way too long and got no value for him as well?
    Is it ownership's fault that he signed Gordon and Villanueva to ridiculous deals?
    Is it ownership's fault that he re-signed Prince and Stuckey when he should have gone full rebuild?

    It's not like they tightened the purse strings on him and preventing him from having the resources to bring in free agents.
    He had plenty of opportunities to do a quick rebuild here and has only sewered this once proud organization even further.

    I will always respect him for bringing them out of the wilderness post-BB Era and delivering a championship and many great seasons but that was over 5 years ago and the team has gotten progressively worse ever since then. Sometimes a fresh face with a new philosophy is needed and this is such a time.
    I would hold onto Frank though. I think he's the victim of being a good coach put in an impossible situation. Give him another season to show tangible improvement with a more talented roster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    His hands were not tied when he foolishly gave Gordon and Charlie V all of our cap space money in the summer of 2009. Will also be without a first round pick in the near future because of Ben Gordon.

    His hands were not tied when he put this organization on the fast track for failure, he has to go.
    I liked the Ben Gorden deal at the time and did not really know Charlie so I was indifferent.....Charlie turned into a scrub and Gordon did not pan out.

    If you hated bringing in Gordon AT THE TIME then you have a legitimate complaint...I liked the Gordon deal AT THE TIME.

    And how do you know where the decision to bring those guys in came from? I will concede that Joe D probably pulled the trigger on that one alone, but I leave slivers of doubt when the organization was obviously priming for a sale.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    It not what he wasn't allowed to do that indicts Joe, it's not his inactions that have done in the Pistons as much as the player choices he's made with what he has been able to do.
    I like Knight, I like Drummond, I like Monroe, I like the trade for Calderone.

    The team as a whole is in disrepair no doubt, but I like some of the pieces they have.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    Is it ownership's fault that he picked Darko over several perennial all stars (potential hall of famers)?
    I do not know, but 90% of the league THAT YEAR said if they had that pick they would have picked Darko...and we won a championship that year so I do not give a crap about that pick, but even if I did...just because we can look back and see what a disaster it was now, doe snot mean it was the wrong move at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    Is it ownership's fault that he jettisoned Billups with minimal return and held onto Hamilton for way too long and got no value for him as well?
    Once again I do not know who pulled the trigger on those deals..AT THE TIME I recall asking myself if I would have preferred Billups to stay or Hamilton....and I could not decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    Is it ownership's fault that he signed Gordon and Villanueva to ridiculous deals?
    I addressed this above.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    Is it ownership's fault that he re-signed Prince and Stuckey when he should have gone full rebuild?
    I was not a fan of the Prince deal and understand why they brought Stuckey back.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    It's not like they tightened the purse strings on him and preventing him from having the resources to bring in free agents.
    How do you know that?

    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    He had plenty of opportunities to do a quick rebuild here and has only sewered this once proud organization even further.
    What were the plenty of opportunities you speak of? This question would apply to all the points you made above...you do not like the deals he made...I will give you the benefit of hind sight to tell me what the deals were that he should have made.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    I will always respect him for bringing them out of the wilderness post-BB Era and delivering a championship and many great seasons but that was over 5 years ago and the team has gotten progressively worse ever since then. Sometimes a fresh face with a new philosophy is needed and this is such a time.
    I would hold onto Frank though. I think he's the victim of being a good coach put in an impossible situation. Give him another season to show tangible improvement with a more talented roster.
    Frank is a mediocre coach at best. I think the roster is not that bad TBH. They are a couple pieces away from being pretty good IMO.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I do not know, but 90% of the league THAT YEAR said if they had that pick they would have picked Darko...and we won a championship that year so I do not give a crap about that pick, but even if I did...just because we can look back and see what a disaster it was now, doe snot mean it was the wrong move at the time.

    How do you know that?

    What were the plenty of opportunities you speak of? This question would apply to all the points you made above...you do not like the deals he made...I will give you the benefit of hind sight to tell me what the deals were that he should have made.

    Frank is a mediocre coach at best. I think the roster is not that bad TBH. They are a couple pieces away from being pretty good IMO.
    A lot of experts thought that the Pistons were reaching for Darko and that he was a project who if he turned out, would be great but it was always thought of as a risky move.
    It seemed that Joe D. didn't pull the trigger on Wade or Melo because the Pistons had their starting 5 set and there was no immediate room for them so he went with the long term project. It was a huge miscalculation on his part.

    Dumars had the green light to overpay mediocre players like Charlie V. and Gordon so obviously management gave him the mandate to spend.

    He had opportunities to do a quick rebuild by making smart decisions and instead wasted the money on the aforementioned 2, re-signed Hamilton, Prince and then Stuckey which therefore, limited cap flexibility to bring in new, fresh faces and turn the page to the next generation.

    This roster is a mess, don't know how anybody can say otherwise. They have an outstanding rookie who is extremely raw still, a couple of decent to good young guys in Monroe and Knight (who is playing out of position) and a hot mess after that full of guys who don't know their roles, are undersized for their roles, are overpaid for their roles or who just aren't good enough. There is no veteran support whatsoever. Outside of the draft, he has done nothing to improve the roster, NOTHING. There's only so much that Frank could have done.
    Last edited by NYLion; 04-15-2013 at 01:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Definitely getting one more year? He is either getting multiple years or none, that is the way you should look at this. No way they give him one more year with all the cap space available. Why would they risk Joe wasting all the cap space on junk players?

    Dumars has been a disaster for about 8-9 years now. It is definitely time he is fired, I want to see them clean house and come in with a fresh regime. Dumars is an awful GM and he has proved that time and again throughout the last decade.
    8-9 years now? Really? Come on now, they won 59 games in 07-08, and that was their 6th consecutive ECF (they lost to NBA champion Boston), hardly a disaster and hardly 8-9 years ago.

    What better GM's are the Pistons going to get? All of these young guns that get bragged about have yet to win ANYTHING, even when gifted will all-NBA players, or allowed to go over the cap. Detroit has a GM who has done it once, proven he could build a team from nothing into NBA champions and contenders.

    I look at it this way, GM's who have won championships are nearly as rare as coaches in the NBA, look at Toronto/Orlando/Washington/Sacramento/Charlotte type of teams, are they ever going to win anything? The only difference between those teams and Detroit is Detroit has Dumars, they have a carousel of GM's coming in and out. I'm not sure who the Pistons could get that would be better then Dumars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    It not what he wasn't allowed to do that indicts Joe, it's not his inactions that have done in the Pistons as much as the player choices he's made with what he has been able to do.
    Yes, but he made bad player choices before, Dumars strength previously was the ability to turn those poor player choices into useful player choices without ego. Do you think he couldn't have flipped Gordon and/or Villanueva earlier in their deals? Do you think he would have kept Hamilton on the team for so long? Do you think we would have had 2 years of Kuestar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    A lot of experts thought that the Pistons were reaching for Darko and that he was a project who if he turned out, would be great but it was always thought of as a risky move.
    It seemed that Joe D. didn't pull the trigger on Wade or Melo because the Pistons had their starting 5 set and there was no immediate room for them so he went with the long term project. It was a huge miscalculation on his part.

    Dumars had the green light to overpay mediocre players like Charlie V. and Gordon so obviously management gave him the mandate to spend.

    He had opportunities to do a quick rebuild by making smart decisions and instead wasted the money on the aforementioned 2, re-signed Hamilton, Prince and then Stuckey which therefore, limited cap flexibility to bring in new, fresh faces and turn the page to the next generation.

    This roster is a mess, don't know how anybody can say otherwise. They have an outstanding rookie who is extremely raw still, a couple of decent to good young guys in Monroe and Knight (who is playing out of position) and a hot mess after that full of guys who don't know their roles, are undersized for their roles, are overpaid for their roles or who just aren't good enough. There is no veteran support whatsoever. Outside of the draft, he has done nothing to improve the roster, NOTHING. There's only so much that Frank could have done.
    So I will ask again:

    What were the plenty of opportunities you speak of? This question would apply to all the points you made above...you do not like the deals he made...I will give you the benefit of hind sight to tell me what the deals were that he should have made.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    8-9 years now? Really? Come on now, they won 59 games in 07-08, and that was their 6th consecutive ECF (they lost to NBA champion Boston), hardly a disaster and hardly 8-9 years ago.

    What better GM's are the Pistons going to get? All of these young guns that get bragged about have yet to win ANYTHING, even when gifted will all-NBA players, or allowed to go over the cap. Detroit has a GM who has done it once, proven he could build a team from nothing into NBA champions and contenders.

    I look at it this way, GM's who have won championships are nearly as rare as coaches in the NBA, look at Toronto/Orlando/Washington/Sacramento/Charlotte type of teams, are they ever going to win anything? The only difference between those teams and Detroit is Detroit has Dumars, they have a carousel of GM's coming in and out. I'm not sure who the Pistons could get that would be better then Dumars.
    There is also a percentage of luck that comes into play with EVERY GM in EVERY sport. Joe got lucky a couple times and so did EVERY SINGLE GM that has EVER won a championship. Some may think this proves the point AGAINST Joe D, but if you replace the guy who already has the ring with someone who also has a ring...what does it matter the other guy got lucky as well....replace him with an unknown GM? The fans would most likely lose their mind the VERY next year if they sucked.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I liked the Ben Gorden deal at the time and did not really know Charlie so I was indifferent.....Charlie turned into a scrub and Gordon did not pan out.

    If you hated bringing in Gordon AT THE TIME then you have a legitimate complaint...I liked the Gordon deal AT THE TIME.

    And how do you know where the decision to bring those guys in came from? I will concede that Joe D probably pulled the trigger on that one alone, but I leave slivers of doubt when the organization was obviously priming for a sale.
    Hating the Gordon deal at the time is an understatement. We already had an All-Star two guard, yet we are going to sign Gordon? Stupidest thing I have ever seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Hating the Gordon deal at the time is an understatement. We already had an All-Star two guard, yet we are going to sign Gordon? Stupidest thing I have ever seen.
    Ever?



    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYLion View Post
    A lot of experts thought that the Pistons were reaching for Darko and that he was a project who if he turned out, would be great but it was always thought of as a risky move.
    It seemed that Joe D. didn't pull the trigger on Wade or Melo because the Pistons had their starting 5 set and there was no immediate room for them so he went with the long term project. It was a huge miscalculation on his part.
    Personally, I love Joe D, but he has to go. And right now. Just go.
    But I don't understand why people think every good he made was either "dumb luck" or "John Hammond's idea", but every bad move he made was all him. Drafting Darko was a mistake, but it was a mistake that most other teams would have made as well.

    What you did not see is other teams (any team?) tying to give huge $$$ to Gordon and Charlie V.
    Extending Rip? Awful. Trading 2014 pick? Stupid. Trading Amir, AA and Delfino for literally nothing? Fireable offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWho17 View Post
    8-9 years now? Really? Come on now, they won 59 games in 07-08, and that was their 6th consecutive ECF (they lost to NBA champion Boston), hardly a disaster and hardly 8-9 years ago.

    What better GM's are the Pistons going to get? All of these young guns that get bragged about have yet to win ANYTHING, even when gifted will all-NBA players, or allowed to go over the cap. Detroit has a GM who has done it once, proven he could build a team from nothing into NBA champions and contenders.

    I look at it this way, GM's who have won championships are nearly as rare as coaches in the NBA, look at Toronto/Orlando/Washington/Sacramento/Charlotte type of teams, are they ever going to win anything? The only difference between those teams and Detroit is Detroit has Dumars, they have a carousel of GM's coming in and out. I'm not sure who the Pistons could get that would be better then Dumars.
    8-9 years is being generous. Really, the only good move Joe has pulled off since 2003 is the Rasheed trade. Even when we were winning in the 2006-2007 season Joe was already making bad choice after bad choice. Drafting Darko?

    Then after 06-07 he trades Chauncey and extends an All-Star 2-guard (Rip) before spending his FA money on another 2-guard. Really, anyone would be better than Dumars outside of Elgin Baylor. I mean maybe I am not giving him enough credit, but you are giving him way too much.

    Dumars got lucky to win a championship. Amazing how much you like Dumars when the evidence points to nothing but a disaster of management for a decade now. How many coaches will he hire and fire? How many FAs will he be allowed to sign and cripple the organization for another 5-6 years. Dumars got lucky, Gores sees that and realizes it is time for him to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    Ever?
    All Kidding aside, everything Joe did wrong was pointed out above, and you are saying things like "at the time," or "I understand why they brought back stuckey." Come on, no one wanted Stuckey back, it was an obvious blunder from the day it happened and it still is. Teh Prince re-signing was a joke and a slap in the face to the fans who have watched this team.

    All of those moves were chastised by the fan base when they happened, because, well, everyone knew they were awful moves. Hindsight isn't part of this equation. Since he traded Chauncey everyone has known just how bad each and every move he has made was, at the time it was happening. Dumars is riding the coattails of a great NBA career and a lucky title run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    So I will ask again:
    That's the GM's job, not mine.
    I'll tell you one thing. There is no way that i would have ever given Charlie V. and Gordon those contracts, those had disaster written all over them from Day 1.

    I am shocked that any of you can defend Dumars's moves of the last 5-6 years SHOCKED.

    You also didn't address my comments about the roster.
    I see a pretty awful roster with some nice pieces to build around and a potential franchise one in Drummond, what do you see?
    Outside of the draft, what has Dumars done to improve the roster over the last several years? You don't have to look too hard to see that the answer is little to nothing.

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    I can see points on either side to keep or jettison Dumars. Clearly I think the recent track record suggests his demise is near. To me, it'll be a sad day if that does happen, not so much for what has transpired recently, but he's a link to all 3 NBA titles for the franchise. It stinks as a fan, but that's the way it goes. It was tough to see Trammell get fired from the Tigers but things have turned out OK there.

    I am going to guess he and Frank become former Pistons' leadership on Thursday and a new GM will be appointed rather quickly in order to allow for him to get into the frey as early as possible. Are there any obvious candidates to take over the reigns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir View Post
    I can see points on either side to keep or jettison Dumars. Clearly I think the recent track record suggests his demise is near. To me, it'll be a sad day if that does happen, not so much for what has transpired recently, but he's a link to all 3 NBA titles for the franchise. It stinks as a fan, but that's the way it goes. It was tough to see Trammell get fired from the Tigers but things have turned out OK there.

    I am going to guess he and Frank become former Pistons' leadership on Thursday and a new GM will be appointed rather quickly in order to allow for him to get into the frey as early as possible. Are there any obvious candidates to take over the reigns?
    John Hammond built the 2004 NBA champs and might need a job if the Bucks fire him

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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    All Kidding aside, everything Joe did wrong was pointed out above, and you are saying things like "at the time," or "I understand why they brought back stuckey." Come on, no one wanted Stuckey back, it was an obvious blunder from the day it happened and it still is. Teh Prince re-signing was a joke and a slap in the face to the fans who have watched this team.

    All of those moves were chastised by the fan base when they happened, because, well, everyone knew they were awful moves. Hindsight isn't part of this equation. Since he traded Chauncey everyone has known just how bad each and every move he has made was, at the time it was happening. Dumars is riding the coattails of a great NBA career and a lucky title run.
    I did.

    Look you hate him. I love him. Nothing either one of us says will change the others mind. I have said my peace.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Brian_K View Post
    I did.

    Look you hate him. I love him. Nothing either one of us says will change the others mind. I have said my peace.
    It's not about changing minds. Your argument is framed around hindsight. Which isn't part of this argument at all.

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    I don't really care if Dumars stays or goes but in general I'd say sports fans are short-sighted in evaluating their own team without looking at other teams to establish a baseline of performance. In other words, every NBA GM makes mind-boggling decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    It's not about changing minds. Your argument is framed around hindsight. Which isn't part of this argument at all.
    MY argument? lol

    And who is to say what is part of argument or not? Who framed the argument to not include hindsight? FTR I think you have the idea all backwards...I am not framing it around hindsight those who think the team sucks now BECAUSE of JD's moves are framing the argument in hindsight....ie 'We suck so bad now because JD made all the wrong moves'...even if the majority of GM's would have made some of those same moves at the time.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatkoVarda View Post
    John Hammond built the 2004 NBA champs and might need a job if the Bucks fire him
    Is that so? If Hammond built the 2004 NBA champs, why hasn't he been able to duplicate his success in Milwaukee? I'm not saying that he didn't have a hand in building the Pistons, but I don't believe that he was the grunt and Dumars was merely a lucky figurehead.

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