2012 Offseason thread

**cruzer1** · 02-21-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

Concerning your first part...in the general sense of the league, yes. But according to the Lions roster right now, I would say CB is a much more pressing need than DE. I'd rather have the Lions take a hit at a position of strength if it means a big upgrade in a position of weakness.

I disagree. You can't have enough pass rushers, and Avril has a lot of ability. They need to hit in the draft. Free agency isn't where value lies, especially with the new CBA.

**cruzer1** · 02-21-2012, 11:55 AM

NFC North playing-time tidbits - NFC North Blog - ESPN

4.Consider that conclusion in the context of how the well-stocked Lions rotated their defensive ends. Cliff Avril played on 72 percent of their snaps and Kyle Vanden Bosch was on the field for 67.9 percent. Lawrence Jackson played on 30.1 percent of the Lions' snaps despite injuries that limited him to 11 games, while backup Willie Young saw action 22.7 percent of plays over 14 games.

**sagnam** · 02-21-2012, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

I disagree. You can't have enough pass rushers, and Avril has a lot of ability. They need to hit in the draft. Free agency isn't where value lies, especially with the new CBA.

Cliff Avril is a free agent too.

**cruzer1** · 02-21-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by sagnam

Cliff Avril is a free agent too.

Not if they franchise him. He's in the system. He's continuity, and a very good player. Don't knock down walls to build other walls. Keep building.

**KleShreen** · 02-21-2012, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Not if they franchise him. He's in the system. He's continuity, and a very good player. Don't knock down walls to build other walls. Keep building.

If they end up costing the same amount, then I'd take the CB at this point. That's all.

**sagnam** · 02-21-2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Not if they franchise him. He's in the system. He's continuity, and a very good player. Don't knock down walls to build other walls. Keep building.

Right, but he's still a free agent. You implied that there isn't value in free agency but also implied Avril does have value. Cliff Avril won't be signed cheap. His salary probably won't be reasonable no matter where he signs. Same goes for any other free agent. There is value in free agency, you just have to find the right guys.

Love the Rod Marinelli-esqe quote at the end there. "Claw the wall" ... "Don't knock down walls to build other walls". If you have to throw more money at a wall then it's worth then it's better to tear down that wall and build a better one. Good teams let marginal talent go to get overpaid in free agency and replace them in the draft.

**cruzer1** · 02-21-2012, 07:27 PM

Avril isn't marginal, he's a turnover maker. He scored a couple of touchdowns.

Also, you can place more value on your players that have done well in your system.

**KleShreen** · 02-21-2012, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Avril isn't marginal, he's a turnover maker. He scored a couple of touchdowns.

Also, you can place more value on your players that have done well in your system.

And Brandon Carr performed very well in Gunther Cunningham's system, as well. Just saying.

Haha.

**cruzer1** · 02-22-2012, 07:05 PM

Avril is staying, and Carr isn't coming here. You can book it.

**GuitarGod19** · 02-23-2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

I disagree. You can't have enough pass rushers, and Avril has a lot of ability. They need to hit in the draft. Free agency isn't where value lies, especially with the new CBA.

You're right, you don't find value in FA which is what Avril is. If we franchise him, he'll be overpaid IMO. His production is decent for being on the field 3/4 of the time, but keep in mind he was the 4th most penalized player on defense in the NFL last year...not exactly "valuable."

I'd love to keep him, at the right price, if it's too much you just have to let him go. Look no further than the Patriots, they had only 5 or 6 players on this year's team that were on the 2008 team (last SB team) and they maintained a high level of play throughout those 4 years. Point is, you have to restock your lost talent through the draft and let your expensive players walk...just the nature of the business. After all that said, I do believe we will sign him...doesn't mean it will be the right move...we'll see when the numbers come out.

**nd1377** · 02-23-2012, 08:22 PM

Photos: Laron Landry is big.

This may have been mentioned already, but article claims Laron Landry may not be franshised so he will be a free agent.

Article claims he has been working out like a mad man. Here is a picture from the article:

Source: Unretired Randy Moss willing to return to league with no guaranteed money - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Randy Moss claims he is willing to sign a contract with no money guaranteed.

**GuitarGod19** · 02-25-2012, 09:00 PM

Few notes from the first day of the combine.

A few OL stood out today that would be available past round one. Centers Ben Jones and Phillip Blake both looked great, they could be had in the 2nd or 3rd. I liked Todd Compton, Mitchell Schwartz and Jeff Allen at the tackle spot...they should be available in the middle rounds. I wasn't really impressed with any TEs...Olsen seems like the best of the bunch that partcipated.

It seems like NFL Network is really pushing for Mike Adams' stock to rise...they keep showing his clips and talking him up.

Kalil is an absolute beast...his size, weight, strength and technique blow everyone there out of the water. I wasn't really impressed with Reiff...

**cruzer1** · 02-26-2012, 01:47 AM

Ben Jones did not look great. He looked ordinary, maybe less than so. I like Blake, but he's a little older. There is a group of centers that will be in the 3rd/4th round range. They are not my cup of tea this year. I really thought Glenn was sensational today. Kind of blew me away. Maybe he can play LT.

**KleShreen** · 02-26-2012, 02:54 AM

Is the NFL streaming live combine coverage on the web again this year? I know they did it last year...

Edit: Never mind. Answered my own question. I'll be watching on there starting at 9 a.m. every day!

**cruzer1** · 02-26-2012, 10:32 AM

Stephen Hill made money today.

**GuitarGod19** · 02-26-2012, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Stephen Hill made money today.

A lot of money...

Doug Martin just solidified himself as a 1st rounder

**GuitarGod19** · 02-26-2012, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Ben Jones did not look great. He looked ordinary, maybe less than so. I like Blake, but he's a little older. There is a group of centers that will be in the 3rd/4th round range. They are not my cup of tea this year. I really thought Glenn was sensational today. Kind of blew me away. Maybe he can play LT.

Athletically he's not above average, I really liked his lateral movement and his consistant bend, he's a really smart player as well.

**GuitarGod19** · 02-26-2012, 02:41 PM

On another note, two players I wouldn't draft at all are Jenkins and Burfict. Jenkins being arrested 3 times is bad enough, but after learning he's 23 with 4 children just pushed it over the top...irresponsible and obviously didn't learn from his mistakes. Burfict is just because of his out of control nature and his lack of concern for it. A quote from the interviews has him saying that he's just misunderstood, and that commiting 17 personal fouls in 35 games doesn't matter because he's the best LB in the draft...no thank you sir.

**GuitarGod19** · 02-26-2012, 04:31 PM

A few thoughts after today:

A lot of good RBs this year, Doug Martin is now my #2 back with Miller, Wilson and James rounding out my top 5. I'm really interested in Chris Rainey, he's a Percey Harvin type player, big playmaker.

WRs left something to be desired IMO...a few stood out. Floyd from ND should be the 2nd WR taken after Blackmon, after those two it gets a bit merky. Stephen Hill made a ton of money today, he outshined everyone.

I don't like judging QBs at the combine, it's just not a good way to evaluate them. I'm interested in Nick Foles from Arizona, he could develop into a real nice player and should be available in the 3rd or 4th round. I think Kellen Moore was exposed yet again, just does not have an NFL arm. Cousins could be the 3rd QB taken, not necessarily a good thing, his deep arm is cause for concern still.

**KleShreen** · 02-26-2012, 05:09 PM

I don't understand the combine sometimes.

Kellen Moore won more games than any quarterback in D1 history. A lot of times, he single-handedly led his team to victories. I don't care if he can't complete a 20 yard out 10 out of 10 times. The guy wins, takes care of the ball and knows how to lead an offense. Out of all the QB's in this draft, if there's one game I need to win or I need a game-winning drive, I'm taking Kellen Moore. Instead, because he doesn't throw the ball 70 mph, he's garbage.

**KleShreen** · 02-26-2012, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by GuitarGod19

On another note, two players I wouldn't draft at all are Jenkins and Burfict. Jenkins being arrested 3 times is bad enough, but after learning he's 23 with 4 children just pushed it over the top...irresponsible and obviously didn't learn from his mistakes. Burfict is just because of his out of control nature and his lack of concern for it. A quote from the interviews has him saying that he's just misunderstood, and that commiting 17 personal fouls in 35 games doesn't matter because he's the best LB in the draft...no thank you sir.

Sounds a lot like a handful of players the Lions already have on defense...nobody complains about those guys.

**cruzer1** · 02-26-2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

I don't understand the combine sometimes.

Kellen Moore won more games than any quarterback in D1 history. A lot of times, he single-handedly led his team to victories. I don't care if he can't complete a 20 yard out 10 out of 10 times. The guy wins, takes care of the ball and knows how to lead an offense. Out of all the QB's in this draft, if there's one game I need to win or I need a game-winning drive, I'm taking Kellen Moore. Instead, because he doesn't throw the ball 70 mph, he's garbage.

I disagree. He's a system QB, looked terrible at the Senior Bowl. He was a waste of roster space there.

**KleShreen** · 02-26-2012, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by cruzer1

I disagree. He's a system QB, looked terrible at the Senior Bowl. He was a waste of roster space there.

How is he any more of a system QB than Griffin?

**Vonlenska** · 02-26-2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

I don't understand the combine sometimes.

Kellen Moore won more games than any quarterback in D1 history. A lot of times, he single-handedly led his team to victories. I don't care if he can't complete a 20 yard out 10 out of 10 times. The guy wins, takes care of the ball and knows how to lead an offense. Out of all the QB's in this draft, if there's one game I need to win or I need a game-winning drive, I'm taking Kellen Moore. Instead, because he doesn't throw the ball 70 mph, he's garbage.

you could replace Moore with Tebow here and have it be almost the same exact impact, are you comfortable with that

being a winning QB in college has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how he would win in the NFL. those intangibles you listed do not mean anything if he can't make NFL throws.

**cruzer1** · 02-26-2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

How is he any more of a system QB than Griffin?

How could you honestly put those two in the same sentence? Griffin has everything you'd want in a QB no matter what the system, and more. He's one of the most talented QB's in history. Moore lacks pure talent, and is not draftable in my opinion.

**GuitarGod19** · 02-26-2012, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

Sounds a lot like a handful of players the Lions already have on defense...nobody complains about those guys.

Like who?

**KleShreen** · 02-26-2012, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Vonlenska

you could replace Moore with Tebow here and have it be almost the same exact impact, are you comfortable with that

being a winning QB in college has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how he would win in the NFL. those intangibles you listed do not mean anything if he can't make NFL throws.

I disagree with that. Tebow won games in college because of his athletic ability and a wealth of NFL talent around him. Moore has shown so many times that when he needs to make a play, he can put the ball on a dime and thread defenders or come up with the big throw when he needs to. He might not have a big arm, but the difference is that he knows it and won't try and force a ball that he knows he can't complete. He's smart with it and knows his limitations as a quarterback. If a QB understand that, I think he can be successful in the NFL no matter what his limitations are.

**KleShreen** · 02-26-2012, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by GuitarGod19

Like who?

I wouldn't say Burfict is any different whatsoever from Suh, Williams or Avril in terms of personalities on the field...

**cruzer1** · 02-27-2012, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

I wouldn't say Burfict is any different whatsoever from Suh, Williams or Avril in terms of personalities on the field...

Suh, Williams and Avril have more talent, and don't cause as much trouble for their own team as Burfict. I wouldn't draft him, either.

**drownwithyou** · 02-27-2012, 06:08 AM

Top 3 winningest QBs in NCAA:

Kellen Moore of Boise State at 49-3

Colt McCoy of Texas at 45-8

David Greene of Georgia at 42-10

Looking at some real NFL star power there. Winning in college always means you win in the pros!

**cruzer1** · 02-27-2012, 07:59 AM

He won't go 49-3 in the NFL. Heck, I would be surprised if he was in camp.

**KleShreen** · 02-27-2012, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by drownwithyou

Top 3 winningest QBs in NCAA:

Kellen Moore of Boise State at 49-3

Colt McCoy of Texas at 45-8

David Greene of Georgia at 42-10

Looking at some real NFL star power there. Winning in college always means you win in the pros!

Should have known better than to get actual mature interaction on this board.

It's just my opinion, but I put a lot more stock in a guy like Kellen Moore winning games like he did at Boise State than those other two guys. Just like Tebow, those other two guys were surrounded by NFL talent at almost every position on the team. Moore was able to win without much of that around him and, when facing superior competition, still won. Yes, he has had a handful of NFL talents around him, but not to the extent of McCoy and Greene.

**4hzglory** · 02-27-2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by KleShreen

Should have known better than to get actual mature interaction on this board.

It's just my opinion, but I put a lot more stock in a guy like Kellen Moore winning games like he did at Boise State than those other two guys. Just like Tebow, those other two guys were surrounded by NFL talent at almost every position on the team. Moore was able to win without much of that around him and, when facing superior competition, still won. Yes, he has had a handful of NFL talents around him, but not to the extent of McCoy and Greene.

I don't see how Cruzer or drown were acting immaturely with their responses, but anyhow, Yes the others had more talent with them, but they also faced a lot more difficult competition on a consistent basis than Moore did. Moore faced 2-3 tough teams per year where as the others had maybe 2-3 light teams per year. As an undrafted player, he will probably get a shot, but if h e doesn't measure at least respectable, he probably won't be drafted (nor should he be.) On the plus side, he may have the makings of a good QB coach though.

**drownwithyou** · 02-27-2012, 11:08 AM

Kellen Moore Game By Game Stats and Performance - Boise State Broncos - ESPN

He was playing superior competition than Texas or Georgia? Maybe I misunderstood your statement, but in going through his game logs from the past two years it doesn't appear that way at all.

**4hzglory** · 02-27-2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by drownwithyou

Kellen Moore Game By Game Stats and Performance - Boise State Broncos - ESPN

He was playing superior competition than Texas or Georgia? Maybe I misunderstood your statement, but in going through his game logs from the past two years it doesn't appear that way at all.

No, I meant he had at most 2-3 tough games, where as all of theirs except 2-3 were tough.

In other words, they had 9-10 tough games compared to his 2-3 where as they had 2-3 light teams compared to his 9-10.

**4hzglory** · 02-27-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by 4hzglory

No, I meant he had at most 2-3 tough games, where as all of theirs except 2-3 were tough.

In other words, they had 9-10 tough games compared to his 2-3 where as they had 2-3 light teams compared to his 9-10.

Going back 4 years, it looked like Moore faced SEC or B12 quality competition roughly 7-9 times total - 2 per year. 3 of those 8 were TCU, 1 was GA, 2 were Oregon, 1 VA Tech. If you count Oregon State and Utah in 2010 it would be 9. McCoy and Greene faced 9 tough teams every season. So, no, I don't think his record gives him any intangible edge over those 2.

**drownwithyou** · 02-27-2012, 11:29 AM

Sorry I was agreeing with you and posing my question to KS without quoting him.

**4hzglory** · 02-27-2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by drownwithyou

Sorry I was agreeing with you and posing my question to KS without quoting him.

Sorry about that, I thought you were making that immature comment to me

**drownwithyou** · 02-27-2012, 11:34 AM

Ha well I was less than tactful in my original response so I can see why he said that.

**KleShreen** · 02-27-2012, 01:01 PM

I wasn't saying Moore was facing superior competition in comparison to McCoy/Greene. I meant it as when he did face superior competition from his conference, he was still able to win. So I don't like the competition-level being a factor. He beat Virginia Tech, he beat Georgia, he beat Oregon twice. I guess we can talk about TCU too, but the feeling I get from most people is that they are just Boise State-lite and wouldn't really count as good competition. I'm not going to fault him for the competition his school faced, that's not his fault, but I will give him props for beating teams that nearly everyone else always thought they would get crushed by. To me, beating good competition with little help around you is much more impressive than beating good competition with a lot of help around you. Which is why I would place him above those other two guys mentioned. Moore and his team crushed nearly every inferior opponent they faced and the majority of the time, beat every superior opponent they faced, all without much help for Moore. Those other guys lost to plenty of inferior teams compared to their own talent. Moore has shown he can play (and beat) above the normal competition level he usually faced.