2010 NFL Draft - Page 4

Stormin' Norman · #**121** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

I am not convinced he is going to fall out of the top 5 yet. A lot will depend on workouts and how different team's doctors evaluate him. There a lot of teams desperate for a franchise quarterback that are going to have a very high draft pick and one of them might deem him worth the risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

I am not talking about which team actual picks a certain player. I am just saying which players are ranked the highest. There is more change in rankings as you get lower but guys like Stafford, Curry, Smith, and Crabtree were always highly thought of.

I wasn't talking about team picks either, I was talking about players.

In fact, you gave me perfect examples. Stafford was always considered a high talent, but Laurinaitis and Malaugua were long listed as the top LB's in the draft ahead of Curry. Jason Smith was hardly the top tackle listed at the end of football season generally ranked behind Andre Smith, Michael Oher and Eugene Monroe. Crabtree was still the SECOND receiver taken in the draft and (perhaps more importantly given the fact the Raiders are hardly normal) was PASSED over by teams with needs at WR (Rams, Seahawks, Browns, Jaguars, etc. etc.)

Mock Drafts are wonderful opinion pieces for talented sports analysts (including our own Mschotty) to grade college player talent and performance mid season, but irrelevant to the actual discussion of drafting.

cruzer1 · #**122** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

There is no way Tebow is a lock first rounder. It is going to take some extremely impressive workouts for him to move into the first round. He has no where near the arm McNabb does.

Well, in my heart I don't believe he's a first rounder, either. I'm just going by Wayne Weaver's comments to try and bolster attendance, that they would draft Tebow. He's the owner, he can do what he wants.

Hart · #**123** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

I wasn't talking about team picks either, I was talking about players.

In fact, you gave me perfect examples. Stafford was always considered a high talent, but Laurinaitis and Malaugua were long listed as the top LB's in the draft ahead of Curry. Jason Smith was hardly the top tackle listed at the end of football season generally ranked behind Andre Smith, Michael Oher and Eugene Monroe. Crabtree was still the SECOND receiver taken in the draft and (perhaps more importantly given the fact the Raiders are hardly normal) was PASSED over by teams with needs at WR (Rams, Seahawks, Browns, Jaguars, etc. etc.)

Mock Drafts are wonderful opinion pieces for talented sports analysts (including our own Mschotty) to grade college player talent and performance mid season, but irrelevant to the actual discussion of drafting.

I was actually talking about Andre Smith, who I think was picked 6th overall. Laurinaitis was a borderline top 10 pick all along by any well respected draft site. Crabtree was a top 5 talent but fell for the reasons you mentioned. Aaron Curry was always very highly regarded, though Laurinaitis and Malaugua got all the headlines. I will give you Malaugua, Monroe, and Oher. There was some discrepancy to where those guys would get drafted but many good analysts had them getting drafted in the top ten at some point or another.

It seems to me there is more uncertainty with guys who are highly productive but lack the tools (Laurinaitis) and with the guys who have the tools but are inconsistent (Carlos Dunlap this year). But there is a select few that have both. I would consider McCoy and Suh almost locks to go into the top 10. And Mays and Berry are not far off from being at this level as well, although there is a little more question with them because they play the safety position. After those four though, I would agree with you that things could change a lot.

Johnny Mac · #**124** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Well, in my heart I don't believe he's a first rounder, either. I'm just going by Wayne Weaver's comments to try and bolster attendance, that they would draft Tebow. He's the owner, he can do what he wants.

especially with that stadium in LA getting built, the Jags need to all they can to bolster their attendance.

Stormin' Norman · #**125** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

I was actually talking about Andre Smith, who I think was picked 6th overall. Laurinaitis was a borderline top 10 pick all along by any well respected draft site. Crabtree was a top 5 talent but fell for the reasons you mentioned. Aaron Curry was always very highly regarded, though Laurinaitis and Malaugua got all the headlines. I will give you Malaugua, Monroe, and Oher. There was some discrepancy to where those guys would get drafted but many good analysts had them getting drafted in the top ten at some point or another.

It seems to me there is more uncertainty with guys who are highly productive but lack the tools (Laurinaitis) and with the guys who have the tools but are inconsistent (Carlos Dunlap this year). But there is a select few that have both. I would consider McCoy and Suh almost locks to go into the top 10. And Mays and Berry are not far off from being at this level as well, although there is a little more question with them because they play the safety position. After those four though, I would agree with you that things could change a lot.

One terrible showing in their bowl game would instantly cost McCoy and Suh.

Bowls make and break football players - and rightfully so. You can tell a lot about a player by how he plays his last college game (most of the players already have their minds made up).

Stormin' Norman · #**126** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Mac

especially with that stadium in LA getting built, the Jags need to all they can to bolster their attendance.

They need a move to Orlando.

Hart · #**127** (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

One terrible showing in their bowl game would instantly cost McCoy and Suh.

Bowls make and break football players - and rightfully so. You can tell a lot about a player by how he plays his last college game (most of the players already have their minds made up).

How does the bowl game tell you anymore than another big game? Is the Oklahoma-Texas game or Nebraska-Virginia Tech game any less telling?

Even if the bowl game were to make or break a players stock, I find it highly unlucky that either of these guys would bomb in the bowl game given their track record.

Mschottey1985 · #**128** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

How does the bowl game tell you anymore than another big game?

Timing

Stormin' Norman · #**129** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 01:34 AM

[QUOTE=Hart;2044178]How does the bowl game tell you anymore than another big game? Is the Oklahoma-Texas game or Nebraska-Virginia Tech game any less telling?[/quotes]

Players are judged by how they play in the biggest games. If a player doesn't show up and play with emotion their last college game, there is something wrong with them.

Also timing is a huge deal as well.

cruzer1 · #**130** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 01:52 AM

I don't really put too much more on a big game. What kind of ability a player has is more important to look at.

Jonesy · #**131** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

Bowls make and break football players - and rightfully so. You can tell a lot about a player by how he plays his last college game (most of the players already have their minds made up).

I disagree with this statement. I would agree with it if the draft was two weeks after the Bowls. But it is not. There are Workouts, and Combines and all star games in between. Which is REALLY what makes or Breaks a player.

If the Bowl games meant that much Vince Young would have went Number 1 overall that year. He Didn't

nd1377 · #**132** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonesy

I disagree with this statement. I would agree with it if the draft was two weeks after the Bowls. But it is not. There are Workouts, and Combines and all star games in between. Which is REALLY what makes or Breaks a player.

If the Bowl games meant that much Vince Young would have went Number 1 overall that year. He Didn't

Would you agree that Jamarcus Russell shot up the draft boards after playing a horrible Notre Dame secondary in the Sugar Bowl?

sportz4life · #**133** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 08:28 AM

[QUOTE=Stormin' Norman;2044224]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

How does the bowl game tell you anymore than another big game? Is the Oklahoma-Texas game or Nebraska-Virginia Tech game any less telling?[/quotes]

Players are judged by how they play in the biggest games. If a player doesn't show up and play with emotion their last college game, there is something wrong with them.

Also timing is a huge deal as well.

Only ignorant scouting staffs base their talent evaluations on one football game.

Mschottey1985 · #**134** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 08:38 AM

[QUOTE=sportz4life;2044284]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

Only ignorant scouting staffs base their talent evaluations on one football game.

It's not about "basing" anything on one game. It's about a player getting hype and publicity at the right time. It's like how a college football loss is easier to take early in the season than late. The "media" machine drives scouting just as much as it drives the AP Poll.

I guarantee if Tom Brady had capped his senior year with a national championship and Bowl MVP, he'd been a 1st/2nd rounder instead of a sixth.

lesgoblu02 · #**135** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

They need a move to Orlando.

They'd need to approve and build a stadium first. Something LA has already done (approved) and is planning on doing (building).

cruzer1 · #**136** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mschottey1985

It's not about "basing" anything on one game. It's about a player getting hype and publicity at the right time. It's like how a college football loss is easier to take early in the season than late. The "media" machine drives scouting just as much as it drives the AP Poll.

I guarantee if Tom Brady had capped his senior year with a national championship and Bowl MVP, he'd been a 1st/2nd rounder instead of a sixth.

Tom Brady shared the QB position at UM, and was thought to have ordinary tools for the position. It was kind of surprising he got picked, to be honest. He played in plenty of big games at UM. He even said he wasn't ready for the NFL when he was chosen. It was simply a freak case of a player who developed late, received good coaching, and was in the right place at the right time.

Mschottey1985 · #**137** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Tom Brady shared the QB position at UM, and was thought to have ordinary tools for the position. It was kind of surprising he got picked, to be honest. He played in plenty of big games at UM. He even said he wasn't ready for the NFL when he was chosen. It was simply a freak case of a player who developed late, received good coaching, and was in the right place at the right time.

I'm also betting that him getting picked may have had something to do with his good Orange Bowl at the end of the season. Still, any QB on a #1 team lighting up a #2 team (whether its is in a dominating or gritty fashion) lights up eyes around the NFL world.

lesgoblu02 · #**138** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Tom Brady shared the QB position at UM,...

I see this all the time. Drew Henson started 0 games and threw 90 passes in 16 games while Brady was the starter. That was Brady's team through and through.

cruzer1 · #**139** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonesy

I disagree with this statement. I would agree with it if the draft was two weeks after the Bowls. But it is not. There are Workouts, and Combines and all star games in between. Which is REALLY what makes or Breaks a player.

If the Bowl games meant that much Vince Young would have went Number 1 overall that year. He Didn't

He went higher than he should have.

Stormin' Norman · #**140** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesgoblu02

They'd need to approve and build a stadium first. Something LA has already done (approved) and is planning on doing (building).

They are planning on revamping the Citrus Bowl.

Dirk Diggler · #**141** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

They are planning on revamping the Citrus Bowl.

Yep...the $175 mil renovation has already started, although there is zero chance that the Bucs (or the NFL) would go for having another team in the same area. Tampa would lose a huge chunk of their fan base with a team only a little over an hour away.

Mschottey1985 · #**142** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Yep...the $175 mil renovation has already started, although there is zero chance that the Bucs (or the NFL) would go for having another team in the same area. Tampa would lose a huge chunk of their fan base with a team only a little over an hour away.

UCF is already doing that!

Stormin' Norman · #**143** (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 11:47 PM

If UCF can get a Charlie Strong or a Tommy Tuberville as their coach they are going to be an important college football team. They are producing NFL talent at Miami/Florida levels and have surpassed FSU.

Mschottey1985 · #**144** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 09:35 AM

I just meant cause UCF has quietly out drawn the Buccaneers this season the Bucs couldn't sell tickets to a hobo for warmth

Acuracljl · #**145** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 10:14 AM

I am an UCF season ticket holder and alumni and our stadium capacity is 34,000 and has sold out only 2 times: Texas and Miami home games, both of which saw the likes of about 40% opposing team fans. We will be on ESPN2 this Sunday night against Marshall and I doubt you will se more than 20,000 turn out.

With that being said the Citrus Bowl is a dump and needs the improvements and even then I don't think that it could support a team. The roads suck, parking sucks, traffic sucks and Orlando "fans" aren't gamers. Same issue in Jacksonville which probably has more population or density, its the fans. Tampa only has the fans they do now because so many Orlando and Tampa people jumped on the bandwagon after their Superbowl. They are slowly losing fans as people jump off the bandwagon and because they suck, too. Floridians are transplants from so many other U.S. cities that it would take years and years to have a fan base.

Orlando is not the right city, not now and not for a while even with a stadium renovation.

Johnny Mac · #**146** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

If UCF can get a Charlie Strong or a Tommy Tuberville as their coach they are going to be an important college football team. They are producing NFL talent at Miami/Florida levels and have surpassed FSU.

Really?

09 Draft
FSU - Everette Brown 2nd round
UCF - Joe Burnett 3rd round

08
FSU - Fluellen 3rd, Guion 5th, Hayes 6th
UCF - Smith 3rd, Sitton 4th, Merritt 7th

07 draft
FSU - Timmons 1st, Davis 3rd, Booker 3rd, Henderson 3rd, Davis 4th
UCF - Walker 3rd

06 Draft
FSU - Sims 1st, Bunkley 1st, Wimbley 1st, Cromartie 1st, Reid 3rd, Washington 4th, Watkins 5th Nicholson 5th
UCF - Marshall 4th

Can you please tell me how that makes UCF producing more talent than FSU?

Hongbit · #**147** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Mac

Can you please tell me how that makes UCF producing more talent than FSU?

By never letting the truth get in the way of a good underdog story. Which also happens to be the same reasoning that UCF are quietly outdrawing the Bucs despite only playing in a 34K seat stadium.

lesgoblu02 · #**148** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 12:50 PM

Are people confusing UCF and USF again?

Johnny Mac · #**149** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesgoblu02

Are people confusing UCF and USF again?

That would make more sense if so, however didnt this start about revamping the Citrus Bowl and moving a team to Orlando. So I am confused as to which one they are talking about.

Mschottey1985 · #**150** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesgoblu02

Are people confusing UCF and USF again?

Yes I did...I was referencing this nugget

Quote:

The Tampa Sports Authority, which manages the stadium, tells us the actual attendance today was 42,847, a shockingly low number even for a winless team. On Thursday night, the University of South Florida drew an actual crowd of 55,073 for its loss to then-No. 8 Cincinnati.

my apologies

Stormin' Norman · #**151** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesgoblu02

Are people confusing UCF and USF again?

I wasn't.

Hongbit · #**152** (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

I wasn't.

I'd agree that most would be very surprised at the depth of NFL talent produced by the small and often overlooked UCF Knights. Still its an amazing stretch to put them on par with Florida, Miami, and even FSU as Johnny pointed out.

Mschottey1985 · #**153** (**permalink**) 10-29-2009, 11:04 PM

Top Defensive Seniors in '10

cruzer1 · #**154** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mschottey1985

Top Defensive Seniors in '10

If I could have a team of 11 Myron Rolles on defense, I would. I'd love to have him on my team.

Mschottey1985 · #**155** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzer1

If I could have a team of 11 Myron Rolles on defense, I would. I'd love to have him on my team.

Here's where we AGREE. Myron Rolle is one player that no one should ever question his work ethic or desire. He knows he's not going to play football forever, but he's also said he'll be playing for the next 10 years.

10 years of Eric Berry or Myron Rolle would be alright by me.

I'm also becoming a big fan of Nate Allen (USF)...wouldn't mind him as a third option.

Johnny Mac · #**156** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 09:28 AM

I love Myron Rolle, but as a player he is a Roy Williams clone pretty much. Not the greatest in coverage, not the best hands but he can tackle.

cruzer1 · #**157** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mschottey1985

Here's where we AGREE. Myron Rolle is one player that no one should ever question his work ethic or desire. He knows he's not going to play football forever, but he's also said he'll be playing for the next 10 years.

10 years of Eric Berry or Myron Rolle would be alright by me.

I'm also becoming a big fan of Nate Allen (USF)...wouldn't mind him as a third option.

It's a great year for safeties, period. Maybe the best ever when you look at the depth. Morgan Burnett, Russell, that kid in UConn (Vaughn), it's loaded this year.

cruzer1 · #**158** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 09:57 AM

For those who like tackles, a growing legend in Hillsdale MI is the pro prospects of LT Jared Veldheer.

Mschottey1985 · #**159** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzer1

For those who like tackles, a growing legend in Hillsdale MI is the pro prospects of LT Jared Veldheer.

Holy mother of sweet fanny Moses! 6'9"?!?!?

That is insane. He would immediately be one of the tallest players in the league, along with Jared Gaither. Not to mention he is stronger and faster than Gaither's pro day scores.

Good catch Cruzer, I will add him to my list...I wouldn't mind taking a flier in the 4th/5th on this guy.

cruzer1 · #**160** (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mschottey1985

Holy mother of sweet fanny Moses! 6'9"?!?!?

That is insane. He would immediately be one of the tallest players in the league, along with Jared Gaither. Not to mention he is stronger and faster than Gaither's pro day scores.

Good catch Cruzer, I will add him to my list...I wouldn't mind taking a flier in the 4th/5th on this guy.

I missed going to see him play locally against Wayne St. and Ferris St (where he plays tomorrow) is too much of a hike, so I'm betting I'll probably see him in an All-Star game, and maybe at the combine.