DRAFT 1.1 QB Matthew Stafford

[vdlion717]

Originally Posted by DaBishop

...and Joe Montana was only the best QB because San Fran was such a good team.[/s] Lucky for you Detroit fans, you'll be able to continue using this logic to tell the world how much better Stafford is then the rest of the QB's in the league because your team will most likely continue to stink for years to come.

Sanchez stepped up and performed in below freezing temperatures, and should have had an even better stat line had Edwards caught that TD pass. Stafford faced exactly the same thing Sanchez did all year. Defenses crowded the box and made the rookie QB beat them. Sanchez did that far more than Stafford did. Yes the Jets had the ability to run better then Detroit so it probably led to more wins but let's be clear, the first 3 wins came on Sanchez' arm and this playoff win he did far more then "just not lose the game". The Jets running game didn't do much of anything until week 6. In fact the only better than average running game prior to week 6 was week 1 when Sanchez was absolutely phenomenal. Let's not take into account that Stafford plays in a dome and played in one cold weather game all year(an impressive 11/26 143 yards and 2 INT's against Cincinatti no less).

also, VDL, Sanchez got knocked out of the Buffalo game early on...but don't let that effect your rant.

I think you're missing my point. I don't think I ever said that Sanchez wasn't good. All I am saying is that he has infinitely more to work with, the best running game in football, and the best defense in football. I didn't even post up any of his crappy games in his losses!

All I wanted to do was point out how little he has to do for his team to win the game. All of those game stats I posted up were in most of his wins.

I don't really understand where you get off saying that the first 3 wins were because of his arm... Really?

Game 1 272 yds 1TD
Game 2 163 yds 2 INTS
Game 3 173 yds 2 TD 1 INT

IMO there are very few teams where they can pull of a win where the qb throws for under 200 yards and only 1 TD ( WHich is what Sanchez did all season. This is really only possible with a great running game (#1) and great defense (#1)

You really don't think if Stafford would have put up better numbers than Sanchez if he had on of the best O-Lines in football, the best running game, and the best defense, and only had to throw 15-20 times a game???

[sagnam]

Originally Posted by GuitarGod19

Lets get it straight, Sanchez didn't win that game last night. A team that has the best O-Line, the best rushing attack, AND the best defense should be favored to win games, and SHOULD be better than 9-7. I'm not saying Marky is bad, but don't sit there and tell me he's better or that he is the reason they are winning because it's simply not the case.

Let's get another thing straight. That juggernaut of a 9-7 team should have been 8-8 and out of the playoffs if not for the best team in the league rolling over for them. Let's not overstate the quality of the rest of that Jets team.

[sinister porpoise]

Originally Posted by Shinzaki

It's stupid to compare Sanchez and Stafford right now...Sanchez gets to make a number of those "roll out leisurely to the right and throw 10 yards to a wide open guy" throws because his running game and OL are so good.

No kidding. Sanchez didn't impress me yesterday, he had play action and screen passes the entire game and even then he was hitting guys on the wrong shoulder with regularity. That's not to say he can't be a good NFL QB but right now he's way behind.

[vdlion717]

Originally Posted by sagnam

Let's get another thing straight. That juggernaut of a 9-7 team should have been 8-8 and out of the playoffs if not for the best team in the league rolling over for them. Let's not overstate the quality of the rest of that Jets team.

I'm pretty sure the Bengals didn't give a **** about the regular season finale either and they rolled over and played dead... So in my eyes they should have went 7-9. I also think it's hilarious how Rex Ryan but 2-3 weeks ago said that they are a crappy team and don't deserve the playoffs and are not a playoff team... Just last week now he proclaims that they should be superbowl favorites!! HAHAHA

[vdlion717]

Case in point... Look at this Ravens - Patriots game... 33 -14 and Flacco has 37 yards and a pick. He doesn't have to do anything and the team competes because they have a great defense and running game. Are people going to say Baltimore is riding Flacco's arm in this win?

[Stormin' Norman]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Sanchez with a playoff win and a QB rating in the game of 139.4.

If only he were as good as Matt Stafford...

Congrats, this was the first game that Sanchez actually looked like an NFL QB. It is to his, and the Jets, tremendous luck that it just happened to be his biggest game of the year. Perhaps Sanchez has an actual future in the NFL after all.

Again, though, I does anyone want to guess how worse his year would have looked if he had been asked to throw 37 times a game?

No QB was asked to throw more passes than Stafford was this year. I am fairly certain his 37 pass attempts per game is a rookie record.

[kgeorge78]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Sanchez with a playoff win and a QB rating in the game of 139.4.

If only he were as good as Matt Stafford...

I cannot believe sombody with 32000 posts can be so negative all year. I don't post much but follow every thread and game threads especially and your negativity is maddening. Seriously I thought this was a "fan" forum.

Stafford did a fine job for a rookie QB. Sanchez had a 100x better O line, Better (The best in the league) Run Game, a top D, better special teams, ....

Sanchez had a fine game yesterday but no way in 100 years would I take Sanchez ahead of Stafford. He cannot match Stafford in terms of tools.

[DaBishop]

Originally Posted by vdlion717

All I wanted to do was point out how little he has to do for his team to win the game. All of those game stats I posted up were in most of his wins.

I don't really understand where you get off saying that the first 3 wins were because of his arm... Really?

Game 1 272 yds 1TD
Game 2 163 yds 2 INTS
Game 3 173 yds 2 TD 1 INT

I don't know where you're getting your stats from. In game 2 he had 1 TD and zero INT's and his running game only ran for 117 yards. In game 3 his running game had only 83 yards. In both of those games, he was the best player on the offense. In game 1 he played ridiculously well.

I love vdlions saying that the Jets would have lost the final game of the season at home to the same team they destroyed on the road a week later. You sure know your football. And last I checked, when Manning et al came out of the game it was only a 5 point difference. The game was by no means over.

Porpoise you were watching a completely different game. Sanchez was right on target all game long.

At the end of the day, Sanchez, just like Stafford has been up and down. That said, he had far more ups then Stafford did. Go ahead and make all the excuses you want for what the reasons are if it'll make you feel better.

[sagnam]

Originally Posted by kgeorge78

I cannot believe sombody with 32000 posts can be so negative all year. I don't post much but follow every thread and game threads especially and your negativity is maddening. Seriously I thought this was a "fan" forum.

Stafford did a fine job for a rookie QB. Sanchez had a 100x better O line, Better (The best in the league) Run Game, a top D, better special teams, ....

Sanchez had a fine game yesterday but no way in 100 years would I take Sanchez ahead of Stafford. He cannot match Stafford in terms of tools.

It's a "fan forum", not a "stick your head up your butt and ignore reality" forum.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by vdlion717

Case in point... Look at this Ravens - Patriots game... 33 -14 and Flacco has 37 yards and a pick. He doesn't have to do anything and the team competes because they have a great defense and running game. Are people going to say Baltimore is riding Flacco's arm in this win?

But Sanchez played better than Flacco did. Is it so hard for Lions' slappies to admit that Sanchez actually played a good game?

He was better in that game than stafford was all year. And, AGAIN, all the same folks who love to tell us how awesome the Jets are (they're not), are the same folks who loved to tell us all how awesome Kevin Smith, Calvin Johnson, the Lions o-line, the Lions awesome linebackers, the Lions solid offensive line, yadda yadda yadda. You can't have it both ways.

BTW: I think Stafford and Sanchez were about even this year. They both have the problems all rookie QBs have. However, one of them was in a playoff game and played well in it. The other was not.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by sagnam

It's a "fan forum", not a "stick your head up your butt and ignore reality" forum.

It has been suggested occationally that I am a fan of sticking my head up my butt and ignoring reality.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by kgeorge78

I cannot believe sombody with 32000 posts can be so negative all year. I don't post much but follow every thread and game threads especially and your negativity is maddening. Seriously I thought this was a "fan" forum.

Stafford did a fine job for a rookie QB. Sanchez had a 100x better O line, Better (The best in the league) Run Game, a top D, better special teams, ....

Sanchez had a fine game yesterday but no way in 100 years would I take Sanchez ahead of Stafford. He cannot match Stafford in terms of tools.

Speaking of tools...

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by Stormin' Norman

Congrats, this was the first game that Sanchez actually looked like an NFL QB. It is to his, and the Jets, tremendous luck that it just happened to be his biggest game of the year. Perhaps Sanchez has an actual future in the NFL after all.

Again, though, I does anyone want to guess how worse his year would have looked if he had been asked to throw 37 times a game?

No QB was asked to throw more passes than Stafford was this year. I am fairly certain his 37 pass attempts per game is a rookie record.

Watch. Next week he has to go into Indy and he probably won't play nearly as well as he did today. Then we can start this argument all over again...

I think Stafford and Sanchez will both be fine NFL QBs. I think Sanchez will be better, but whatever, they'll both be good.

You guys are so blind when it comes to Stafford that it's really funny.

[cruzer1]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Watch. Next week he has to go into Indy and he probably won't play nearly as well as he did today. Then we can start this argument all over again...

I think Stafford and Sanchez will both be fine NFL QBs. I think Sanchez will be better, but whatever, they'll both be good.

You guys are so blind when it comes to Stafford that it's really funny.

What makes you think that?

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

What makes you think that?

What makes me think what? There are three separate things on there.

I think the colts are a better team with a better pass rush than Cincy. I think they'll put a lot more pressure on sanchez and he'll make more mistakes. I don't think he'll be as good as he was last week against Cincy.

I think Stafford is more akin to Cutler: a guy who trusts his arm too much and makes too many mistakes. I've always liked Sanchez more.

I think they had similar years this year, but that Sanchez was on a better team in a better environment for winning, so he won more games. I also think that he's thrown the ball very well in a very unfriendly environment (outside in the cold and wind of the Meadowlands) as opposed to stafford who threw it indoors and in perfect weather most of the season. Stafford had Calvin Johnson to throw to, Sanchez had a better running game and a better line. Kind of a wash there (although i don't rate CJ as highly as many around here seem to rate him).

All in all, I think sanchez had a better year and will be just as good or better: tools or no tools. But that's not to say I think it's obvious or that it's a slam dunk. Stafford might turn out better. However, to say he's had a better year than sanchez is just homerism, IMO.

I think Normin, SP and others (occasionally you) forgive Stafford for all his sins rather than objectively look at how he played this season. Nothing in his game indicated he was destined for stardom other than the strength of his arm (which doesn't necessarily equate to anything). Objectively, QB was a weakness for this team this year as Stafford played poorly in most games. To read certain posters, it would seem as if the stafford should be in the pro bowl after throwing 20 picks.

He played like a rookie with a strong arm. No shame in that. But there's certainly nothing in his season to show he's destined for stardom.

[kgeorge78]

Originally Posted by sagnam

It's a "fan forum", not a "stick your head up your butt and ignore reality" forum.

Because I said Stafford is better than Sanchez?

The reality is you cannot compare the 2. One plays on a superior team. The other had more TD passes in a game than any other rookie of all team (On the worst team of all time). It was the browns (who won the last 4 games inc. games against pitts and jax).

That moment offered hope. I don't remember cheering like that for any other play in recent lions history.

[cruzer1]

The Browns game didn't make you think he's destined for stardom? Just a thought/suggestion...

Also, I don't get this "trusts his arm" deal. Either you have it, or you don't. He's got it. More than Sanchez. To me, it's like comparing a Verlander with Kenny Rogers. Yeah, Kenny will have his moments, but you know Verlander has more talent. You might like Rogers more, though. He doesn't trust his arm.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

The Browns game didn't make you think he's destined for stardom? Just a thought/suggestion...

Not really. A good game against a terrible team doesn't mean he's destined for stardom in my book. Not any more than Sanchez having a great game against a good team in Cincinnati...on the road....in the playoffs...means he's "destined" for stardom.

Hey, I thought he played a good game against the Browns that day. Coming back into the game after getting bailed out on a PI call on a hail mary was great. of course, i don't consider having to be bailed out on a hail mary to be "leading your team to a 4th quarter win," but whatever, he did it. It was cool.

Also, I don't get this "trusts his arm" deal.

He throws too much into coverage, trusting his arm strength more than his brain. Or maybe he just doesn't read coverages well? I imagine it's more of the former than the latter considering he did the same thing a lot at Georgia.

Cutler is exactly the same way.

Either you have it, or you don't. He's got it. More than Sanchez. To me, it's like comparing a Verlander with Kenny Rogers. Yeah, Kenny will have his moments, but you know Verlander has more talent. You might like Rogers more, though. He doesn't trust his arm.

Fernando Rodney has a great arm too, so does edwin jackson. If you're not accurate, it doesn't matter as much. He's got the ability to be really good, let's see if he gets there.

And I wouldn't call Sanchez "Kenny Rogers." If you want to continue the baseball analogy, Stafford throws high 90s and is all over the place, sanchez throws low 90s and more strikes.

[cruzer1]

I disagree. Stafford is more accurate than Sanchez. Sanchez is more like high 80's. Very ordinary.

[kgeorge78]

Originally Posted by Buddha

Not really. A good game against a terrible team doesn't mean he's destined for stardom in my book. Not any more than Sanchez having a great game against a good team in Cincinnati...on the road....in the playoffs...means he's "destined" for stardom.

Hey, I thought he played a good game against the Browns that day. Coming back into the game after getting bailed out on a PI call on a hail mary was great. of course, i don't consider having to be bailed out on a hail mary to be "leading your team to a 4th quarter win," but whatever, he did it. It was cool.

Sanchez had 15 pass attempts and 1 TD yesterday. To compare the 2 Games is crazy. Did you even see the PI play? Johnson got killed. You're saying he didn't lead his team to a 4th quarter win??? Coming back in with a popped out shoulder thowing a TD pass to a rookie TE?

Avoiding getting killed and even being able to throw that hail mary into the endzone was a miracle.

You obviously hate Stafford. There is no logic behind your posts. Like a 5 year old who negates everything you say.

Name another moment in recent LIons history that Rivals the end of that game.......

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

I disagree. Stafford is more accurate than Sanchez. Sanchez is more like high 80's. Very ordinary.

arm strength isnt everything, cruzer.

[cruzer1]

Originally Posted by Buddha

arm strength isnt everything, cruzer.

It gives him the chance to be more accurate, and make better throws.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

It gives him the chance to be more accurate, and make better throws.

I think whether he's accurate or not gives him the chance to be more accurate, not his arm strength.

There are a million different ways to play QB. Sometimes arm strength and athleticism result in a great QB like John Elway. Sometimes they result in Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf. Sometimes accuracy and effectiveness results in Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Sometimes it results in Alex Smith or Joey Harrington.

Although he wasn't my first choice, I like Stafford. If he can stay healthy behind that sieve of an o-line, he's got a chance to be good. i like Sanchez better, but I could be wrong.

We'll see.

[sinister porpoise]

Sanchez 196-364 (53.8%) 15 games played. 2444 yards, 12 TD 20 INT 10 fumbles (3 lost)
Stafford 201-377 (53.3%) 10 games played. 2267 yards, 13 TD 20 INT 4 fumbles (1 lost)

and we're supposed to accept that Sanchez is more accurate and makes fewer mistakes? The fact that Sanchez has a weaker arm does NOT mean he is more accurate or safer with the ball. Stafford had similar pass % and INT (less than half as many fumbles) even though the defense knew he was going to be passing every down and hence gave him much tougher looks than Sanchez faced.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by sinister porpoise

Sanchez 196-364 (53.8%) 15 games played. 2444 yards, 12 TD 20 INT 10 fumbles (3 lost)
Stafford 201-377 (53.3%) 10 games played. 2267 yards, 13 TD 20 INT 4 fumbles (1 lost)

and we're supposed to accept that Sanchez is more accurate and makes fewer mistakes? The fact that Sanchez has a weaker arm does NOT mean he is more accurate or safer with the ball. Stafford had similar pass % and INT (less than half as many fumbles) even though the defense knew he was going to be passing every down and hence gave him much tougher looks than Sanchez faced.

"We're supposed to beleive that the fact that Sanchez was more accurate means he's more accurate!"

Nothing gets past you, does it.

Sanchez also played outside in the windiest stadium in pro football. Stafford played in a dome with, according to Lions' fans, the best receiver in pro football.

Did you take that into account too? I'm guessing not.

[GuitarGod19]

You're all wrong...Josh Freeman is the best QB out of this class...

End of topic

HA..............

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by GuitarGod19

You're all wrong...Josh Freeman is the best QB out of this class...

End of topic

HA..............

The could very well end up being true...

[sinister porpoise]

Originally Posted by Buddha

"We're supposed to beleive that the fact that Sanchez was more accurate means he's more accurate!"

Nothing gets past you, does it.

Sanchez also played outside in the windiest stadium in pro football. Stafford played in a dome with, according to Lions' fans, the best receiver in pro football.

Did you take that into account too? I'm guessing not.

I saw plenty of Sanchez, he went to a much better situation than Stafford. Not asked to throw nearly as often, given easier throws w/ tons of time to pass. Having a dominant run game compared to throwing nearly every down is a big deal. If you really think that Sanchez' and Stafford's circumstances were equal then so be it.

[cruzer1]

Originally Posted by Buddha

I think whether he's accurate or not gives him the chance to be more accurate, not his arm strength.

There are a million different ways to play QB. Sometimes arm strength and athleticism result in a great QB like John Elway. Sometimes they result in Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf. Sometimes accuracy and effectiveness results in Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Sometimes it results in Alex Smith or Joey Harrington.

Although he wasn't my first choice, I like Stafford. If he can stay healthy behind that sieve of an o-line, he's got a chance to be good. i like Sanchez better, but I could be wrong.

We'll see.

Behind that "sieve" of an oline, he was sacked only 24 times. Mostly on blitzes, where he had no chance to get rid of the ball. Mostly because the receivers weren't getting open.

[DaBishop]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

The Browns game didn't make you think he's destined for stardom? Just a thought/suggestion...

Also, I don't get this "trusts his arm" deal. Either you have it, or you don't. He's got it. More than Sanchez. To me, it's like comparing a Verlander with Kenny Rogers. Yeah, Kenny will have his moments, but you know Verlander has more talent. You might like Rogers more, though. He doesn't trust his arm.

What is this "it" you're talking about? Because as far as intangibles go, Sanchez has Stafford beaten hands down in my opinion. I wish I knew what the heck you're seeing that makes you think Stafford has "it" but Sanchez doesn't. Sanchez had one of his best NFL games on the biggest stage of the season against the #4 defense in the league and what was being called by all reports leading into the game the best cornerback duo in the league. How exactly does that tell you he doesn't have "it". Sounds like you just want to justify your homer opinion of Stafford.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Behind that "sieve" of an oline, he was sacked only 24 times. Mostly on blitzes, where he had no chance to get rid of the ball. Mostly because the receivers weren't getting open.

How many times was he hit?

[DaBishop]

Originally Posted by cruzer1

Behind that "sieve" of an oline, he was sacked only 24 times. Mostly on blitzes, where he had no chance to get rid of the ball. Mostly because the receivers weren't getting open.

24 times in 10 games isn't really that great...then again, it's not the worst either considering how many times he threw the ball. About an equal sack percentage per pass attempt as Sanchez had.

Oh, and for clarifications sake, the Jets play San Diego next week. I don't know if they'll win, but with Revis shutting down Jackson and not much of a running game to worry about I wouldn't count them out.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by sinister porpoise

I saw plenty of Sanchez, he went to a much better situation than Stafford. Not asked to throw nearly as often, given easier throws w/ tons of time to pass. Having a dominant run game compared to throwing nearly every down is a big deal. If you really think that Sanchez' and Stafford's circumstances were equal then so be it.

I think their situations are dissimilar. They both have advantages and disadvatages that the other didn't have.

sanchez had a better running game and better oline (although cruzer may argue otherwise depending upon the argument he's trying to make). Stafford got to play with a better #1 receiver and got to play indoors.

Also, all this talk about how much Stafford "had" to throw the ball because the Lions sucked. So what? That gave him more opportunities to succeed and prove he was better. He didn't, IMO. At the end of the day, the results were similar.

And I love all this talk about how Stafford was great against the ****ing Browns. The BROWNS! Sanchez just played a great game against the damn Bengals, on the road, in the elements. That's ten times more impressive than anything Stafford did all year, especially in beating the ****ing Browns.

[kgeorge78]

Originally Posted by Buddha

I think their situations are dissimilar. They both have advantages and disadvatages that the other didn't have.

sanchez had a better running game and better oline (although cruzer may argue otherwise depending upon the argument he's trying to make). Stafford got to play with a better #1 receiver and got to play indoors.

Also, all this talk about how much Stafford "had" to throw the ball because the Lions sucked. So what? That gave him more opportunities to succeed and prove he was better. He didn't, IMO. At the end of the day, the results were similar.

And I love all this talk about how Stafford was great against the ****ing Browns. The BROWNS! Sanchez just played a great game against the damn Bengals, on the road, in the elements. That's ten times more impressive than anything Stafford did all year, especially in beating the ****ing Browns.

you hate stafford.

[DaBishop]

Originally Posted by Buddha

And I love all this talk about how Stafford was great against the ****ing Browns. The BROWNS! Sanchez just played a great game against the damn Bengals, on the road, in the elements. That's ten times more impressive than anything Stafford did all year, especially in beating the ****ing Browns.

I get pretty taken aback by this also. That Stafford got 40% of his TD's and 20% of his yards in one game against a team that had at that point 1 win(a 6-3 win vs. Buffalo in what was probably the worst game of the season) seems to be something I'd try to distract attention from rather than use as proof of his excellence.

[sinister porpoise]

Originally Posted by Buddha

I think their situations are dissimilar. They both have advantages and disadvatages that the other didn't have.

sanchez had a better running game and better oline (although cruzer may argue otherwise depending upon the argument he's trying to make). Stafford got to play with a better #1 receiver and got to play indoors.

Also, all this talk about how much Stafford "had" to throw the ball because the Lions sucked. So what? That gave him more opportunities to succeed and prove he was better. He didn't, IMO. At the end of the day, the results were similar.

I don't think many NFL people would agree that starting as a rookie QB on an 0-16 team, throwing 40-50 times a game is only "dissimilar" to being a rookie QB on a 9-7 team throwing 15-20 times a game with a top running game and top defense.

[RedRamage]

And, AGAIN, all the same folks who love to tell us how awesome the Jets are (they're not),

They aren't? I just heard on the radio again today a national ESPN announcer who said the Jets had the number one running game and the number one defense. That makes them not good??

...are the same folks who loved to tell us all how awesome Kevin Smith, Calvin Johnson, the Lions o-line, the Lions awesome linebackers, the Lions solid offensive line, yadda yadda yadda. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure which message board you're reading. I think the far majority of people here consider Smith serviceable at best. Johnson is great, yes. I'm not sure anyone has considered our LB's as awesome.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by RedRamage

They aren't? I just heard on the radio again today a national ESPN announcer who said the Jets had the number one running game and the number one defense. That makes them not good??

I'm not sure which message board you're reading. I think the far majority of people here consider Smith serviceable at best. Johnson is great, yes. I'm not sure anyone has considered our LB's as awesome.

What? I remember reading all sorts of **** about how Kevin smith was a solid building block and a great player. Same with Cliff avril. Same with the Lions having the best linebacking corps in the NFl and a great receiving corps.

What message board are YOU reading?

Ask Norman, he admits he made a mistake.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by kgeorge78

you hate stafford.

No I don't. a realistic assessment of your starting quarterback does not mean you hate him.

But you're welcome to think I do, I couldn't care less.

Let me beat you to the punch: I don't think Barry Sanders was the greatest running back of all-time. I don't think Jack Morris belongs in the hall of fame. i think the US soccer team stinks.

You can join the long line of people who say I hate the Lions, the Tigers, and america. welcome to the club!

[Jason_R]

Originally Posted by kgeorge78

you hate stafford.

I think he has a man-crush on Sanchez.

Or he's just trying to rile some folks up... and they are taking the bait.