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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
    That's heavy reading and disturbing. But very important. I encourage everyone who has responded in this thread or the other one to read it. It's an eye opener.

    Hopefully the positive thing that will come out of this is the next time people won't be so ingorant and dismissive when they think something's going on.

    But I am ready to just quit on Joe Posnanski and ESPN over their glossing this over. I don't care how many ****ing football games he won. That's not important.

    This is Posnanksi's Fab Five moment where you realize the guy may be nothing but a whore out to sell books.
    I read it, and it doesn't change my opinion on Paterno. Joe Pa didn't rape boys and he didn't allow it, he heard disturbing news and turned it over to people better suited. Knight from Nike was spot on yesterday, "The fault belongs in the investigation."

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    I read it, and it doesn't change my opinion on Paterno. Joe Pa didn't rape boys and he didn't allow it, he heard disturbing news and turned it over to people better suited. Knight from Nike was spot on yesterday, "The fault belongs in the investigation."
    If you were the head coach of Penn State when this happened and you knew what is reported Paterno knew. The incident in 1998 and then again the eye witness coming to you for guidance...you do not do anything different?

    You see Sandusky walking around the campus all the time...you KNOW he runs an organization geared towards little kids....you do nothing more than tell the campus rent a cops -'hey, uhhhh...there may be something going on with Sandusky.' and leave it at that?

    You continue on with your life like you knew nothing? You continue on just assuming he must not be guilty even though you had someone tell you DIRECTLY what they saw?

    Sandusky is the monster...noone is trying to gloss over that.

    McQueary is MORE at fault IMO than Paterno....McQuearys father is next, Schultz/Curley next THEN Paterno/anyone else that knew something was not right, but that does not rid him of responsibility.

    Take that blog and times it by 10 and most likely MANY more.
    "And that is part of the larger pattern of the appeal of a new online collectivism that is nothing less than a resurgence of the idea that the collective is all-wise, that it is desirable to have influence concentrated in a bottleneck that can channel the collective with the most verity and force."

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    I read it, and it doesn't change my opinion on Paterno. Joe Pa didn't rape boys and he didn't allow it, he heard disturbing news and turned it over to people better suited. Knight from Nike was spot on yesterday, "The fault belongs in the investigation."
    Yeah I always look to the child slave labor guru Phil Knight on issues regarding the well being of children.
    .

  4. #124
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    Everybody keeps saying that Paterno should have banned Sandusky from the gym. I don't think that was something he could do legally. I'm pretty sure Sandusky had a retirement contract with Penn State which allowed him use of campus facilities after retirement. That's a pretty standard contractual agreement at many universities. It all comes back to the administration not doing their jobs properly.

    Others say that he should have contacted "real" cops rather than campus cops. That's another thing that goes against campus procedure. The real cops don't have jurisdiction over Penn State university. It's up to the campus cops to decide whether a case requires them to get assistance from outside cops.

    Could Paterno have used his influence to follow up with administration and security more aggressively? Perhaps, but the real fault lies with the investigation. They completely screwed this case up.
    Lee Panas
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    Everybody keeps saying that Paterno should have banned Sandusky from the gym. I don't think that was something he could do legally. I'm pretty sure Sandusky had a retirement contract with Penn State which allowed him use of campus facilities after retirement. That's a pretty standard contractual agreement at many universities. It all comes back to the administration not doing their jobs properly.

    Others say that he should have contacted "real" cops rather than campus cops. That's another thing that goes against campus procedure. The real cops don't have jurisdiction over Penn State university. It's up to the campus cops to decide whether a case requires them to get assistance from outside cops.

    Could Paterno have used his influence to follow up with administration and security more aggressively? Perhaps, but the real fault lies with the investigation. They completely screwed this case up.
    C'mon Lee, They didn't even try to find a solution. In fact they didn't even need to ban him or take any action that highlighted Sandusky in particular. All they had to do was to implement and enforce a completely non-discriminatory "no adult alone with a minor policy" that even the boy scouts have adopted and is a good idea completely apart from whether anything had or hadn't happened. They would not had had to say a word to him. If they denied him privacy he would have gone somewhere else by his own choice.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 01-27-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    C'mon Lee, They didn't even try to find a solution. In fact they didn't even need to ban him or take any action that highlighted Sandusky in particular. All they had to do was to implement and enforce a completely non-discriminatory "no adult alone with a minor policy" that even the boy scouts have adopted and is a good idea completely apart from whether anything had or hadn't happened. They would not had had to say a word to him. If they denied him privacy he would have gone somewhere else by his own choice.
    I don't see how this disputes what I said in my post. The administration didn't do it's job which is what I'm saying. If this happened at my university, the child protection advocates would have been all over this case. They wouldn't have left it up to some football coach.

    Universities are not like private corporations. The university culture traditionally promotes freedom and independence and they are reluctant to pass rules and regulations specifically telling employees what they can and can't do. However, once someone abuses their freedoms, they need to deal with it on an individual basis. That's where the administration screwed up.
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  7. #127
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    and I feel comfortable saying that Paterno, given his stature, can be included when you say "Administration". He's beyond an employee. He had more power to do anything than anybody else, including University President or State Governor.
    .

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger337 View Post
    ...

    Universities are not like private corporations. The university culture traditionally promotes freedom and independence and they are reluctant to pass rules and regulations specifically telling employees what they can and can't do. However, once someone abuses their freedoms, they need to deal with it on an individual basis. That's where the administration screwed up.

    Again, I'm having trouble taking what you are posting seriously. This is not even close to an academic freedom issue. I work for a large University now myself. They have no trouble at all promulgating conduct rules in areas like that.

    In the case at PSU - if Paterno recognizes the problem - told his admin "look I'm not completely sure what is going on here but let's at least be sure we are not contributing/enabling a possibly catastrophic situation"..... They run teen camps. It is inconceivable that adult/child contact rules are not a std part of the discussion that they all are familiar with - it has been everywhere else for at least 20 yrs.
    Last edited by Gehringer_2; 01-27-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Again, I'm having trouble taking what you are posting seriously. This is not even close to an academic freedom issue. I work for a large University now myself. They have no trouble at all promulgating conduct rules in areas like that.

    .
    So, you're saying every university has a "no adult alone with a minor policy"? Let's say I had a teenage son who was thinking of attending a university and I had a friend who had retired from the university, but had access to facilities. That friend wouldn't be allowed to give my son a tour of the university?
    Lee Panas
    detroittigertales.com

    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  10. #130
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    Well for starters - a university is used to dealing with mostly adults, but a lot of places do have policies for management of one to one contract between adults and unrelated minors in programmed activities. I'll grant that it could have been more difficult is Sandusky was taking advantage of some kind of post employment access rights given to him to bring kids on campus outside of program activities (and what motivation would PSU have to have granted that in the first place???) - that still seems like something that should have been revocable. He was an ex-assistant FB coach not an academic researcher. If PSU felt bound by an arrangement like that they are definitely more screwed up than they should be.

    And really, even if they had given him more difficult to revoke academic rights - do you think he would have fought their revocation knowing that if PSU started looking they were going to find abused kids? Sorry, I just think no matter how you cut it, it's a bunch of rationalizations. YMMV I guess.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehringer_2 View Post
    Well for starters - a university is used to dealing with mostly adults, but a lot of places do have policies for management of one to one contract between adults and unrelated minors in programmed activities. I'll grant that it could have been more difficult is Sandusky was taking advantage of some kind of post employment access rights given to him to bring kids on campus outside of program activities (and what motivation would PSU have to have granted that in the first place???) - that still seems like something that should have been revocable. He was an ex-assistant FB coach not an academic researcher. If PSU felt bound by an arrangement like that they are definitely more screwed up than they should be.
    I remember reading that it was indeed a contractual agreement similar to what tenured professors get (sorry, don't feel like digging up a link at the moment). I do agree that an effort should have been made to revoke it. I just disagree on who should have been responsible for making it happen.

    I also don't think keeping him off of Penn State would have been enough to stop him. All that really does is pass the buck from PSU to elsewhere.

    If PSU felt bound by an arrangement like that they are definitely more screwed up than they should be.
    I agree with you there. I think they handled the whole thing very poorly.
    Lee Panas
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    "They can use both (old- and new-school statistics)," Cabrera said. "In 2012, we've got to take advantage of all that.

  12. #132
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    I agreed with Phil Knight.

    Edit: Seems that poster deleted his comment.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    Knight from Nike was spot on yesterday, "The fault belongs in the investigation."
    Phil Knight is a POS who needs to find another sweatshop to oversee somewhere.

    The Onion nails it.
    Jerry Sandusky: I'll Never Forget All The Things Joe Paterno Did For Me
    Last edited by guy incognito; 01-27-2012 at 02:33 PM.

  14. #134
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    This is just my 2 cents on the whole thing not pointing out any one poster or post.

    When a person dies weather they were good or bad it seem like there are people who say don't talk bad about them cause they are dead. I have never understood that. If you did something bad and now you're dead we're just supposed to forgive you and turn away from the bad things you did?

    Joe didn't rape any child himself. But he knew of it and let it go on. I get very upset when I do see people say well he turned it over to the proper people to handle. Huh? Its called a telephone. You pick it up and you call the police and let them know what you have been told. Its not a hard device to use Joe. If I hear about a crime I don't just keep passing the rumor down the road hoping one of the people who hears the rumor is going to do something about it. I do it myself cause that is the right thing to do.

    Then for the people who do defend him I say shame on you. Put yourself in the families or children's shoes who were effected by this. What if this was your child. I higher doubt anyone of the defenders would be saying I'll remember him more as a coach or won't even think of this at all when remembering Joe. So just take a step back and think of the kids and parents who have to live with this everyday.

    Lastly as for how I feel about it. I hope his soul burns in hell for the rest of days. Just because he coached football doesn't mean I shouldn't wish something like that on someone who did what he did. If he was just a normal guy and did this I'm sure this would be a lot more of a popular statement as well.
    Last edited by New_Age_X; 01-27-2012 at 08:55 PM.

  15. #135
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    How some want to slander a man, who in his late 70's, after decades of invaluable public service, made a poor judgment call based on his entire life prospective, is beyond me.

    He was just a man who didn't understand, give him a break.

  16. #136
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    It's not slander when it's true. Slander is when it's false.
    .

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    after decades of invaluable public service
    Is that what we call "coaching a football team" now?
    I have a theory that as revenue for sports increased so too did the need to lionize individuals as heroes. Its basically nonsense pushed on the viewing public by interested parties e.g. sports commentators to fill airtime

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    How some want to slander a man, who in his late 70's, after decades of invaluable public service, made a poor judgment call based on his entire life prospective, is beyond me.

    He was just a man who didn't understand, give him a break.
    He's a willing public figure. Good luck getting anything anyone says or types here categorized legally as slander or libel.
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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    He was just a man who didn't understand, give him a break.
    People keep wanting to say he was senile or just too old to understand. And yet he was still making a great living as the coach of the Penn State football program, holding those responsibilities to understand how to run a program. Something about those statements just just don't make sense in my world.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    How some want to slander a man, who in his late 70's, after decades of invaluable public service, made a poor judgment call based on his entire life prospective, is beyond me.

    He was just a man who didn't understand, give him a break.
    Having too many drinks and driving a car is "a poor judgment call." Getting hammered at a bar and hooking up with some floozie when you're married is "a poor judgment call." Doing the bare minimum when you know someone is raping children is a hell of a lot worse. And letting the man YOU KNOW was reported by a trusted assistant as molesting children bring more kids around your football program is simply monstrous.

    Protecting children is the most basic "public service." A service Joe Paterno utterly failed to perform.
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  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister porpoise View Post
    Is that what we call "coaching a football team" now?
    I have a theory that as revenue for sports increased so too did the need to lionize individuals as heroes. Its basically nonsense pushed on the viewing public by interested parties e.g. sports commentators to fill airtime
    He did donate a lot of money and raise a lot of money for the school (and not just the football program). He did help a lot of his players beyond their problems on the field. He didn't cheat (as far as we know). He did do a lot of things for the University and the community. So I don't want to totally discount that, but if one thing can derail all that good - it's this. And the guy was not senile.
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  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&P_Fan View Post
    How some want to slander a man, who in his late 70's, after decades of invaluable public service, made a poor judgment call based on his entire life prospective, is beyond me.

    He was just a man who didn't understand, give him a break.
    Holy cow.

  23. #143
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    PSU fans and devotees of Paterno are like the Baathist in Iraq: Dead enders who owed everything to one man.

    Be gone.

  24. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesgoblu02 View Post
    Well, he wasn't a great man "because he coached a football team". He was a great man for a multitude of other reasons.
    Whatever reason you list i will counter with "and then allowed a child to be raped" and it makes your point invalid.

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