Am I the only person who has yelled this....

[ToledoTigerFan]

at your TV screen upon seeing a starting pitcher that has dominated a game being removed for a relief pitcher?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Complete games are not an infraction. Having a pitcher finish a game he has started is not showing up your opposition. I miss complete games. A lot.

[campusano07]

pitch count..tired arms

[LeFlorean]

Jay Mariotti the other day (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariotti/359176,CST-SPT-jay26.article):

In retrospect, '03 will be recalled as the year Prior and Wood threw an insane number of pitches in September and October, as manager Dusty Baker smelled history in his first season. Anyone who subscribes to the ravaged-arms theory needs only this evidence. Starting Sept. 2 through his Game 7 loss to the Florida Marlins, these were Wood's pitch counts: 120, 122, 114, 125, 122, 124, 117, 109, 112 -- for a total of 1,065. Prior's workload was more hideous, considering he was coming off a DL stint for a shoulder bruise after the collision with Giles. Starting Sept. 1, he threw 71 innings in six weeks, with these pitch counts: 131, 129, 110, 124, 131, 133, 133, 116, 119 -- for a total of 1,126.

[Jeff]

I'm with you TTF!

[T.O. Tiger Fan]

Jay Mariotti the other day (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariotti/359176,CST-SPT-jay26.article):

In retrospect, '03 will be recalled as the year Prior and Wood threw an insane number of pitches in September and October, as manager Dusty Baker smelled history in his first season. Anyone who subscribes to the ravaged-arms theory needs only this evidence. Starting Sept. 2 through his Game 7 loss to the Florida Marlins, these were Wood's pitch counts: 120, 122, 114, 125, 122, 124, 117, 109, 112 -- for a total of 1,065. Prior's workload was more hideous, considering he was coming off a DL stint for a shoulder bruise after the collision with Giles. Starting Sept. 1, he threw 71 innings in six weeks, with these pitch counts: 131, 129, 110, 124, 131, 133, 133, 116, 119 -- for a total of 1,126.

Managers have to find a balance between protecting a pitcher long term and winning now. Obviously, they went for winning now and narrowly missed making the World Series. Of course, they are paying for it now.

[ToledoTigerFan]

pitch count..tired arms

How many pitches had Durbin thrown? Less than 100, I think. Robertson was at 105. Those are not high pitch counts. 120+ consistently could be considered high, but the pitch counts I'm seeing starters getting yanked are low. And I know Leyland is but one of 30 mangers who does it like that, so I'm not singling out Jim. It's just one of those things that irritates me. Some people are irritated by the DH. Me, it's strict adherence to pitch counts.

[ToledoTigerFan]

I'm with you TTF!

At least I'm not alone. :classic: I get the feeling we're outnumbered, though. :knocked:

[potthole]

How many pitches had Durbin thrown? Less than 100, I think. Robertson was at 105. Those are not high pitch counts. 120+ consistently could be considered high, but the pitch counts I'm seeing starters getting yanked are low.

Do keep in mind, however, that it's still the first month of the season, and overall it's fairly cold out still. As the season progresses and as temperatures rise, the leash a manager has his pitchers on usually grows longer.

[ToledoTigerFan]

Do keep in mind, however, that it's still the first month of the season, and overall it's fairly cold out still. As the season progresses and as temperatures rise, the leash a manager has his pitchers on usually grows longer.

My problem is I don't like the leash at any time. Cold, hot, urinating in the wrong spot. :shocked:

[potthole]

Oh yeah, things are still frustrating, but at the same time, at this point in the season, a manager has to keep his players healthy.

[Lbh24]

In some cases, yes. But not tonight; the last few batters Robertson faced absolutely drilled the ball.

[Anthony]

at your TV screen upon seeing a starting pitcher that has dominated a game being removed for a relief pitcher?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Complete games are not an infraction. Having a pitcher finish a game he has started is not showing up your opposition. I miss complete games. A lot.


I just yell when I see Inge up during a 2 out rally, because thats usually it.

[monkeytargets37]

Robertson being pulled tonight was the right decision (although Zumaya didnt hold up his end of the deal), but Durbin should have stayed in on Wednesday.

[TonyJM]

Managers have to find a balance between protecting a pitcher long term and winning now. Obviously, they went for winning now and narrowly missed making the World Series. Of course, they are paying for it now.

Right...But man...It's not like Baker cut Prior any breaks when the game was decided. Five of his 9 September and October starts were decided by more than 3 runs. In those starts he averaged over 125 pitches. 131 in a 7-0 shutout of the Cardinals?

[BigCec]

You are not the only person TTF. I do it all the time.

[Erdmania]

In addition to saving the arms of the starters, in my opinion, it's probably best to give young arms like Zumaya innings, and the chance to work out their mechanics and whatnot. I trust Leyland, and his handling of pitchers, and if that is the approach he's taking, hopefully it works out. I'm sure there'll be a point (and perhaps we're close to it?) when Zoom will get a rest, if he's showing no progress, and those mechanics will have to be worked on in practice/the minors exclusively, but for now, have some faith. Let's just hope that Joel doesn't turn into Mark Wohlers 2007 :hurt:

[atomicrod]

Teams have had an entire off season to look at Zumaya and see how he was successful. Batters approach on him seem different from last year. It's now up to Joel to adjust and regain his confidence. His body language in the dugout tonight looked like he was someone who was out of ideas and was beaten. My greater concern is the drop in velocity. When I see the drop off, lose of control and batters getting hits, I start to consider something might be physically wrong.

Tonight's game also displayed something very clear. It's not 2006 anymore. This is a different season and right now Jim Leyland has to find a way to either get players confidence back to fill their roles from last year, or come up with new ways to get the job done. While I don't have the stats to back this up, it feels like the Tigers have blow more games already this season than they did all of last year. There is no need to panic, but one month in things that worked last year haven't had the same constancy this season.

Rodney looked much better in California, Monroe stung the ball tonight, Casey appears to have figured out his success lies in going the other way. There are other signs that things may be getting back on track, then Zumaya implodes. My only concern is getting to September and realizing some bullpen meltdowns in April has cost the team the 4 or 5 games they needed to move on.

[DET Mr Malefic]

at your TV screen upon seeing a starting pitcher that has dominated a game being removed for a relief pitcher?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Complete games are not an infraction. Having a pitcher finish a game he has started is not showing up your opposition. I miss complete games. A lot.

While I believe pulling Robertson at the time Leyland did tonight was the right move, I have had these moments.

I've had two such moments with Bonderman this year............once against the Blue Jays when he had 96 pitches going into the 10th inning (Halladay had 98 and has a history of arm trouble and yet it was okay for him to pitch?) and another game that I no longer can remember the opponent but I remember Bonderman had just 86 pitches and he was taken out.

The Tigers lost both games which may have been won had this not happened.

[JohnJMS]

Seems we are saving our starting pitchers at the cost of winning games. If that's the case, what exactly are we saving them for?

[atomicrod]

Seems we are saving our starting pitchers at the cost of winning games. If that's the case, what exactly are we saving them for?

In my opinion, so they stay good pitchers for long careers.

It's hard to second guess Leyland on the moves, especially last night. Zumaya brought in in the 8th with a 2 run lead is usually automatic. Robertson had started to struggle. The decesion was solid and I think almost any other manager in the major leagues would have done the same thing. Zumaya just didn't execute it.

[Surfer Joe]

In my opinion, so they stay good pitchers for long careers.

It's hard to second guess Leyland on the moves, especially last night. Zumaya brought in in the 8th with a 2 run lead is usually automatic. Robertson had started to struggle. The decesion was solid and I think almost any other manager in the major leagues would have done the same thing. Zumaya just didn't execute it.

I didn't see the game but you're right. If Robertson was starting to struggle you bring in Zoom. He just didn't get the job done. Win some, lose some.

[JohnJMS]

Robertson's pitch count wasn't tremendously high (95), and he had only given up one run and 5 hits in 7 innings. He was pitching a gem. We don't ALWAYS have to go to the bullpen, especially now when it's struggling so much. Even Leyland admits that: ""Our bullpen is struggling right now, there is no doubt about that," Tigers manager Jim Leyland said." quoted from MLB.com.

The Tigers have an Amrerican League leading 8 losses out of the bullpen. Maybe, just maybe, it's time to take a different approach and not be so quick to use standard managing practices. If Robertson had thrown a ton of pitches, was REALLY struggling - well then OK, I say look to the pen. But to just look to the pen solely because it's the 8th inning and then watch another game go down the drain, well, I guess I expect more than that.

[atomicrod]

I understand what you are saying John, but I often times wonder if there is a mental block with starting pitches when they hit the 7th and 8th inning. Perhaps they feel since they have went that far they should be tired. They don't pitch complete games in the minors or college so it can become a mental imprint that getting to the 7th and 8th is what is expected.

I know there are a lot of theories on how to handle a staff. To me, allowing Robertson to take a loss last night after pitching so well would have been a major mistake. It's hard to tag a mark of failure on someone who had done his job.

There are problems with the Tigers bullpen right now, many of which could be solved if they would have some offense and allow some seperation. That isn't going to happen until Casey, Monroe and Inge all start to provide something. 2 of those 3 appeared last night like they may have turned a corner. In addition they need more than 0-13 out of the backup catcher position. Sometimes I think problems in one area actually have root causes in another.

[JohnJMS]

....To me, allowing Robertson to take a loss last night after pitching so well would have been a major mistake. It's hard to tag a mark of failure on someone who had done his job.

Good post and I see your points. However, it seems to me you assume Robertson would have taken the loss. I don't beleive that would have been the result. Now - we'll never know, but when things aren't going well (and our bullpen isn't going well), I'm just suggesting maybe we should leave the starter in provided he's not thrown 120+ pitches. I think what's a mistake is over and over again letting guys like Bonderman and Robertson pitch great games and then watch the pen wreck their entire outing.

We'll see what happens, but last year our pen had about 17 losses for the enitre season (about 2.8 per month), and we have 8 so far in 22 games in April. There is one stat that is a killer - and can't ever get erased or improved on as a season goes along - and that's LOSSES. Team batting averages can improve, ERA's can get better, etc.... But once a game's lost - it's gone. Think back to last year - we lost the division by ONE GAME. We can't count on a Wild Card berth every season. The best way to ensure playoffs is to win your division. These losses could very well come back to haunt us.

All I'm saying is, if in the next couple of games we have a starter who is pitching a great game, let's not jump to the bullpen just because it's the 8th inning. Let's have a reason to do it until the bully shows us it's worked out some of the issues. For now, go to the pen if we need to, not because want to. Those needs might include a tired pitcher - but it didn't SEEM to be the case last night. I'm all for pitch counts to save our starters, just not inning counts.

Just my opinion. Like everyone else, I want to see us win.

[Domino]

Our bullpen is not even close to the same it was last year. This has been evident. However, many of these losses fall on Leyland's shoulders. He is absolutely too quick to pull a starting pitcher. The only arms that can pitch consistently well are our starters. If they're going well and are at 90-100 pitches... LEAVE THEM IN FOR ANOTHER INNING. It is NOT going to ruin anything to go one more inning.