Richard Bak's book on the Detroit Stars

[DTroppens]

According to the table of contents he has career pitching and batting stats. I don't know if that's individually (I'm guessing they are) or whatever, but this book has to be a good starter's point for our the Negro League inductions. It has the Stars' all-time roster as well. This will be a very good starting point for the Negro Leagues.

[deadcenter~440]

Drtoppens,

Does the book give any kind of way to contact Richard Bak? I have a tiger stadium question for him and knowing the research that goes into his books, I'm sure he would be the one who would know.

[redshark63]

Drtoppens,

Does the book give any kind of way to contact Richard Bak? I have a tiger stadium question for him and knowing the research that goes into his books, I'm sure he would be the one who would know.

Why don't you try here first?

[deadcenter~440]

Why don't you try here first?
Okay,

A few websites have mentioned that Tiger Stadium (In the season's of 1944 and 1961) had a 30' "screen" in RF, making it only possible to hit a home run if the ball was batted into the second deck.

This would presumably mean that a fence stretched all the way from the second deck facade to the ground. However, I've seen photos from 61', and I didn't see any fence.......Does anyone know if this is true? Have any proof? Why would the Tigers do this? and why for only two seasons?

[DTroppens]

deadcenter,
I have heard about the fence in 1961 but don't recall 1944. I too have tried to find pictures of it a ton and have never saw one. I just checked Green Cathedrals (a good no nonsense book about ball parks) and you are right. It was there in 1944 as well. I want to say I once read how many homers the fence actually away during that season and it wasn't very many at all (in 1961).

I looked for Richard Bak's number or address or anything as an indication where you could contact him but didn't find it in A Place for Summer. I am pretty certain he lives in Michigan. The season Tiger Stadium closed I also printed every article I could find about it. Richard Bak had articles there as well, but they have no email addersses for him there. I am fairly certain he still lives in the Metro Detroit area so I'd give a shot around these areas. Maybe the Free Press can help you.

[SweetLou]

If anyone is interested I have "The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues" by James A. Riley. Riley is one of the more prominent historians of Negro League Baseball. He is the one who helped put together the APBA baseball set of 20 great Negro League teams a decade or so ago. God I wish I still owned that set. Anyways, it is the original hardcover version and is in pretty darn good shape. I was going to put it up on ebay but if I could find a good home for it amongst you baseball fanatics I would rather do that.

[SweetLou]

DTroppens, is that the one mainly on Turkey Stearnes? I read that one some years ago and it was a very good read. Up till then I never realized how prevalent Michigan was in the growth of the Negro Leagues. They had games going all over the state.

[redshark63]

Dave & DC,

I found a picture of the screen in "A Place for Summer" - page 295, "Al Kaline snags a Micky Mantle blast against the right-field screen late in the 1961 pennant race..."

You can see the screen in the background in the closeup shot of Kaline.

DC - I see you posted the question on BF w/out much success. Great forums there.

[DTroppens]

redshark,
I was quickly glancing through that book trying to find one. You really can't see the screen to the upper deck. It would be cool to see that.

For some reason I want to say (it has clicked in my mind) that I did once see one in 1944 now. It had servicemen in the stands behind it. This conversation is creeping up old cobwebs in my mind.

SweetLou,
That's it. You may want to Get Replay's 1923 National Negro League set. I purchased it after seeing one replay on our site and love it. It has the actual schedules for each team, has the charter member teams and transations. It will really give you a feel of Negro League ball back then to an extent. Oh, it also has Turkey Stearns and he was pretty darn good. Also I found a site that has NNL stats for several seasons pretty close to complete. There are some estimates I think for at bats and stuff like that, but it's as good a picture of seasons you will find to date. If you do a search on agatetype negro leagues you should find it. It also has stuff about Cuban ball and many late 1800 and 1900 leagues and games. It's a great site. You could probably make your own APBA cards with those stats. I'm going to eventually do it with Statis-Pro.

[SweetLou]

SweetLou,
That's it. You may want to Get Replay's 1923 National Negro League set. I purchased it after seeing one replay on our site and love it. It has the actual schedules for each team, has the charter member teams and transations. It will really give you a feel of Negro League ball back then to an extent. Oh, it also has Turkey Stearns and he was pretty darn good. Also I found a site that has NNL stats for several seasons pretty close to complete. There are some estimates I think for at bats and stuff like that, but it's as good a picture of seasons you will find to date. If you do a search on agatetype negro leagues you should find it. It also has stuff about Cuban ball and many late 1800 and 1900 leagues and games. It's a great site. You could probably make your own APBA cards with those stats. I'm going to eventually do it with Statis-Pro.





I think I might fork over the cash for Replay here pretty darn soon. Actually my son who is 11 is just now starting to be a huge sports fan. I kind of want to get him into tabletop sports games and am looking for a good baseball and football game for him to tackle. I may be leaning towards Second Season for Football and I might as well stay in the family and pick up Replay as well.

[deadcenter~440]

deadcenter,
I have heard about the fence in 1961 but don't recall 1944. I too have tried to find pictures of it a ton and have never saw one. I just checked Green Cathedrals (a good no nonsense book about ball parks) and you are right. It was there in 1944 as well. I want to say I once read how many homers the fence actually away during that season and it wasn't very many at all (in 1961).

I looked for Richard Bak's number or address or anything as an indication where you could contact him but didn't find it in A Place for Summer. I am pretty certain he lives in Michigan. The season Tiger Stadium closed I also printed every article I could find about it. Richard Bak had articles there as well, but they have no email addersses for him there. I am fairly certain he still lives in the Metro Detroit area so I'd give a shot around these areas. Maybe the Free Press can help you.
Thanks DTroppens,

It sounds like they're may have been a screen in existence, but like you, I've tried to prove it and have found no pictures and the statistical data for those two seasons shows no anomolies that would detect a higher number of doubles or lower number of home runs...........

I'll keep searching and trying to contact people who may have proof.

[DTroppens]

The Wolverines are easy so I've been looking for Negro League players the last week or so.
If people get a chance these are people I think we can address (just starting it so there' only a few names)

Turkey Stearns (obvious)
Bruce Petway - a lot of him on the internet as well. I knew he was good but he was pretty good with the Stars as well. He's really one to look at.

I'll add names as I find people. I think this will be the most rewarding chapter of our team.

[SweetLou]

The Wolverines are easy so I've been looking for Negro League players the last week or so.
If people get a chance these are people I think we can address (just starting it so there' only a few names)

Turkey Stearns (obvious)
Bruce Petway - a lot of him on the internet as well. I knew he was good but he was pretty good with the Stars as well. He's really one to look at.

I'll add names as I find people. I think this will be the most rewarding chapter of our team.




Looking at the Encyclopedia I have, a couple others would be Pete Hill and Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe.

[DTroppens]

Ted Radcliffe? I didn't even know he played for the Stars. I am checking and it looks like he may have played for them from 1928-1929. He played for some 15 teams. I wonder if he was on the team long enough to really be considered. That's what is going to make this tough.

[redshark63]

Mule Suttles -

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35697

[Tyrus]

Bak lives in Dearborn. I believe he is still employed by the Detroit Athletic Club, so you may be able to get ahold of him through the DAC.

[Tigeraholic1]

I think I might fork over the cash for Replay here pretty darn soon. Actually my son who is 11 is just now starting to be a huge sports fan. I kind of want to get him into tabletop sports games and am looking for a good baseball and football game for him to tackle. I may be leaning towards Second Season for Football and I might as well stay in the family and pick up Replay as well.

A great game I enjoyed as a teen was "Pursue the pennant (http://www.geocities.com/tabletopbaseball/ptp.html)" it is great fun and can be found on Ebay.

[DTroppens]

EVERYBODY
I went to the Holly Township Library for the first time ever and got the Turkey Stearnes and the Detroit Stars book. This book is a very good guidline to use to get a broad list that we can cut down for candidates. Some are obvious at a second glance and were people I was wondering about from my game and the few stats I had before this book. Of course stats aren't complete. In fact there are some contradictions on some of the people I'm looking at right now from what I saw about them before. So that's one reason we have to be fairly slow on this.

But people that clearly are up for discussion in terms of being a possible nominee.

Andy Cooper - pitcher - I knew about this guy but wasn't sure if he really was a strong hurler and if he was here for a long time. Well he played nine seasons and had a 91-48 record with an average of 4.24 runs allowed a start. ERAs weren't kept back then and unearned runs were higher in the Negro Leagues than the major leagues because their parks were considerably poorer. An ERA can be about 1 to 1.5 runs higher than it really should. He allowed less hits than walks and only walked 185 in over 1,100 innings. He has longevity and quality on his side. I will be fighting hard for him to be on the list.

To be honest he's the only obvious pitcher just glancing around and he was the one I kind of noticed. My first observation is that the 1920s Stars were very much like the Tigers. More offense than pitching.

Turkey Stearnes - if he doesn't make it we aren't doing this list justice. I'm guessing he will be one of our few unaminous picks. Apparently he was as class act as he was a player as well. As good as the Tigers' outfield was in the 1920s they would've had this guy starting immediately without segregation.

Bruce Petway - A great catcher who had some strong offensive seasons.

Clarence Smith - his stats scream a looking at. And he was around six years.

Christobal Torriente - I've never seen someone's name spelled so many different ways. Actually I saw a list that had most of the variations. He's in the HOF and fast becoming one of my favorite Negro League players. Very good player with a great temper. But only two years in Detroit. He was in Chicago for a long time and he may miss out because of that.

Mule Riggins - A great fielding SS that could hit as well.

Ed Rile - Many Negro League players were very versatile and he was one of them. He played the infield and was a decent pitcher. Most rosters had about 12-13 people at any given time so you can see a lot of people had to pitch. From what I've learned teams could play five games in a city, five more in another and then have a week "off". I'm learning this from my 1923 NNL replay. Of course there was barnstorming between real games as well.

People like Cool Papa Bell and Mule Suttles were hardly here and didn't play much when they were here. I know they are in the HOF but I don't think they can be included. Ted Radcliffe could be argued but it would take some convincing with me at least.

This is a very thin thumbnail sketch. I see people like John Jones who I have yet to really learn anything about and that's going to take some time.

I am working on this. I suggest others check it out too so we can get this going and get the conversation going. There's quite a few sites on the internet that you can find out info about the people I listed.

[Mudman]

I think the entire 1932 Detroit Wolves team should be inducted as a unit. The league folded before a complete season but this was an All-Star team! It was owned by Homestead Grays' Cum Posey and included "Cool Papa" Bell, Willie Wells, Judy Johnson, "Smokey" Joe Williams, Newt Allen, Ray Brown, George Giles, Ted Trent, Quincy Trouppe, and Mule Suttles.

[DTroppens]

I know what you are saying but I don't think people that played not even a complete season really deserve to be on a HOF team.

[Mudman]

I know what you are saying but I don't think people that played not even a complete season really deserve to be on a HOF team.
My statement was a little tongue in cheek...I was trying to open a door beyond the Stars. There were the Detroit Senators managed by "Cool Papa" Bell and a few variations of the Wolves including the 1947 club managed by Dizzy Dismukes who was a great friend of Jackie Robinson...he helped Robinson get signed..as a favor on an off day in Chicago, Robinson suited up and played for Detroit...so if anyone ever asks what team Jackie Robinson played for in 1947 you can say....The Dodgers and the Wolves!