Lynn's Latest - 2007 Batting Order

[DaYooperASBDT]

Sounds like your new cleanup hitter could be ... Magglio Ordonez!
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061228/SPORTS0104/612280340/1129/rss15

[Yoda]

Didn't we know that already?

I don't see Polanco batting 9th. Bat him 2nd and move Guillen down to 5th.

[zachcadillac]

Henning might be onto something with his proposed lineup, if he can come up with an alternative for Casey at five. That's just ludicrous.

The article mentions that Leyland may consider moving Granderson down in the lineup. I don't think it's necessary but I'm not entirely opposed to it. However, this rationale is just insane:

That, in turn, could leave the back end of Detroit's lineup looking different than it did most days last season. Moving Granderson out of the leadoff spot would drop him anywhere from sixth to ninth.

It could have a potential dual benefit: reducing negative effects from Granderson's strikeouts at while placing a left-handed hitter with power deeper in the order.



Strikeouts are most definitely more damaging with men on base. Granderson, by hitting leadoff and following some combination of Inge, Monroe, and possible Polanco, won't bat in as many situations with runners on as he would lower in the order.

[zachcadillac]

Didn't we know that already?

I don't see Polanco batting 9th. Bat him 2nd and move Guillen down to 5th.

Why? Guillen is a much better option there. I think I'd even bat Casey second ahead of Polanco.

[Yoda]

Why? Guillen is a much better option there. I think I'd even bat Casey second ahead of Polanco.

What do you think Leyland will do though? Polanco probably won't be as bad as he was last year. He'll be a fixture at the #2 slot again.

[dt35456884]

You have to like how we'd stack up 1-through-4 in that lineup, when everybody is healthy. It's hard to get excited about the bottom-middle third, but 7-9 looks solid if Polanco bounces back.

I just really hope Monroe suddenly adds about 30 points to his OBP.

5. Sean Casey, 1B: The Tigers don't want three right-handed batters in a row in the middle of the lineup. Casey isn't a big home-run hitter, but no one says a career .302 hitter who has gap power can't be at home at the No. 5 slot.

Is "gap" a euphemism for "very little"?

[Tyrus]

I think Polanco is a natural #2 hitter. There's a big hole at leadoff, though...I like Granderson, but I think he's trying to be something he's not when they bat him leadoff. It isn't the kid's fault -- he's trying to help the team. But I think there would be a lot less pressure on him if they batted him 7th or 8th.

[tiger337]

I'd love to see Guillen bat second but Polanco is the prototypical #2 guy so he'll probably end up there. If Guillen doesn't bat #2 , I'd like to see him bat 3rd.

[Tigercub33]

Sounds like your new cleanup hitter could be ... Magglio Ordonez!
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061228/SPORTS0104/612280340/1129/rss15

It would be better if you posted the story...not just the link.

Yoda didn't say it, so I had to. I find it really makes commenting easier

[dt35456884]

Polanco's production wilted horribly last year. I'd see if he can bounce back to something approaching his '05 levels before I gave him plate appearances by the bunches at the #2 spot over an on-base machine like Guillen.

[Tigercub33]

Lynn's Article(s)
How will the Tigers line up?
Lynn Henning / The Detroit News

Lynn Henning of The Detroit News plays manager for a day and makes out a batting order he might go with for a typical game in 2007:
1. Curtis Granderson, CF: Strikeouts were his problem in 2006. But only Carlos Guillen had more walks, and Granderson's .335 on-base percentage will improve in 2007 as his strikeouts diminish. His extra-base hitting (his 19 home runs were as many as Guillen hit) is one more reason to keep him at leadoff, where pop is a plus.
2. Carlos Guillen, SS: Why not? Guillen had a .400 on-base percentage in 2006, which was by far tops on the team. He is a switch-hitter, which gives you obvious matchup advantages against that day's starting pitcher. He has power (manager Jim Leyland loves home-run sock at No. 2), but not so much that you're hurting the middle of the lineup by batting Guillen second.
3. Gary Sheffield, DH: This is easy. Sheffield will show up at spring training as the most lethal hitter in Detroit's lineup. By any analysis -- power, average, his 100-walks-a-year potential -- he belongs at No. 3.
4. Magglio Ordonez, RF: He hit .298, drove in 104 runs and led the team in total bases. Ordonez is expected to be stronger in 2007 after some meaningful offseason conditioning. He is the easy choice.
5. Sean Casey, 1B: The Tigers don't want three right-handed batters in a row in the middle of the lineup. Casey isn't a big home-run hitter, but no one says a career .302 hitter who has gap power can't be at home at the No. 5 slot.
6. Craig Monroe, LF: He led the team in home runs (28) but had a stunningly low .301 on-base percentage. Batting him sixth or seventh seems logical.
7. Pudge Rodriguez, C: Leyland seriously is considering him at leadoff. Rodriguez has amazing speed for a 35-year-old catcher. "He's one of our fastest baserunners," the manager says. He is a career .304 hitter with a lifetime .342 on-base percentage.
8. Brandon Inge, 3B: He hit 27 home runs, and batting him eighth rather than ninth is going to be worth a few more RBIs.
9. Placido Polanco, 2B: His .693 OPS (on-base plus slugging percentages) was the lowest of any Tiger who played in 100 games or more. Polanco is being considered as one of Leyland's leadoff choices. But batting him ninth makes sense. He takes few walks but has the hitting skills to make for a dangerous end-of-the-order hitter who can sustain a big inning.


AL Central appears even better

One of Jim Leyland's pet offseason projects has been to make out possible batting orders for 2007.

"I must have made out 40 or 50 of them last night," the Tigers manager said earlier this month at baseball's winter meetings in Orlando.

The job has become significantly more pleasant in the weeks since Detroit acquired Gary Sheffield from the Yankees.

Leyland now can plug into a lineup Sheffield's potent bat. Sheffield's gaudy career statistics explain why the Tigers were so tickled to add him to a lineup that needed a scary hitter in the middle.

He has 2,390 hits, 455 home runs and a career batting average of .297. His career on-base percentage is .398 and his career slugging percentage is .525, which, for those who delight in baseball's truest offensive statistic, gives Sheffield a career OPS (on-base plus slugging) of .923.

When you're in the 900-1.000 range on OPS, you're the kind of hitter pitchers desperately hope will be on the disabled list their next time on the mound.

Leyland's plan -- in December, anyway -- is to bat Sheffield third or fifth. The only hang-up there is Carlos Guillen, whom the manager also is considering at No. 3.

Magglio Ordonez is Leyland's choice for No. 4, with either Sheffield or Guillen fifth.

The manager's other lineup options are open, right down to leadoff man. Leyland isn't married to the idea that Curtis Granderson will bat first. There might be days, Leyland acknowledged, when Placido Polanco or even Pudge Rodriguez would hit at the top spot.

That, in turn, could leave the back end of Detroit's lineup looking different than it did most days last season. Moving Granderson out of the leadoff spot would drop him anywhere from sixth to ninth.

It could have a potential dual benefit: reducing negative effects from Granderson's strikeouts at while placing a left-handed hitter with power deeper in the order.

Where does Monroe go?

Consider Leyland's tendencies and thought processes on where hitters belong and it's easy to understand why he can spend an evening listing dozens of different batting orders.

Leyland batted Craig Monroe -- who led the team in home runs -- anywhere from second to eighth last season. Leyland shares with Cardinals manager Tony La Russa the thought that it can be helpful to put a hitter with power at the second spot. Monroe's advantage hitting deeper in the order is that Leyland also likes pop in the eighth spot. Monroe's low on-base percentage (.301 in 2006) is another factor in batting him deeper in the lineup.

On days when Marcus Thames (if he isn't traded) makes it into the lineup, Leyland faces another consideration. Thames matches a respectable on-base mark (.333 in 2006) with the top slugging percentage (.549) on the team.

If Thames spells Monroe in left -- or Casey at first -- he is a definite middle-of-the-order hitter.

Brandon Inge makes sense at the eighth spot -- or ninth, where he often hit last season -- because of a relatively low batting average (.253), his knack for striking out (128, second to Granderson's 174) and his power. Inge's 27 home runs kept pitchers honest at a point generally considered the weakest in a batting order.

Formula vs. intuition

Inge, however, might be worth bumping up a spot as the Tigers consider an interesting possibility at No. 9: Polanco.

Polanco batted .295 last season but had a low OPS (.693 -- .329 on-base, .364 slugging). He gets the bat on the ball (17 walks, 27 strikeouts) but tends to be a singles hitter. In other words, he could offer Leyland the advantage of having a quasi-leadoff man batting aheadof the leadoff batter.

Much of the manager's disposition there is a matter of what you think about the computer-generated wisdom that it's better for a team to load the front end of its order with its best hitters.

That, of course, can collide with a manager's intuition, and even more, his experience.

"I know a guy who did that one game," Leyland said of one manager who followed the best-hitters-at-the-top formula. "And his team got shut out on two hits."

For now, the manager is tinkering -- and thinking. Expect it to continue well into 2007.

You can reach Lynn Henning at lynn.henning@detnews.com.

[tiger337]

I have little confidence in Casey but if Guillen bats 2nd, who would bat 5th? The options (Rodriguez ? Monroe ? Inge ?) are not much better than Casey. Monroe has power but the 5th hitter needs to get on base at a reasonable clip.

[Shaggy Ry]

I think Leyland's talk of Rodriguez possibly leading off was a message to the catcher that his middle of the order days are over and either he re-invents himself as a table setter or will find himself in the bottom 3rd of the order. I can't see Ivan's HOF ego allowing him to bat in the bottom third, so lets hope he comes back looking to lead-off, because if he still believes he's a 3-4-5-6 hitter and Leyland sticks him in 7-8-9 spot, he could sulk his way through the season, and we don't have any alternatives to catch. I think he has the capability to be the teams best lead-off option if he embraces the role completely.

I like Polanco at the bottom of the order, however don't think Leyland would even consider it. I think Granderson is more of a #3 or #6 hitter and that he's taking one for the team by trying to lead off which causes him to look at too many pitches and puts him in bad count positions which leads to strike outs.

Ivan Rodriguez
Placido Polanco
Carlos Guillen
Gary Sheffield
Magglio Ordonez
Curtis Granderson
Craig Monroe
Sean Casey
Brandon Inge

However Leyland would likely switch Casey and Granderson in my line-up favoring the wily veteran LHB over the youngster LHB. I'd consider the switch when facing a LHP.

[DaYooperASBDT]

It would be better if you posted the story...not just the link.

Yoda didn't say it, so I had to. I find it really makes commenting easier

But, I'm lazy! :classic:

[DaYooperASBDT]

I think Leyland's talk of Rodriguez possibly leading off was a message to the catcher that his middle of the order days are over and either he re-invents himself as a table setter or will find himself in the bottom 3rd of the order. I can't see Ivan's HOF ego allowing him to bat in the bottom third, so lets hope he comes back looking to lead-off, because if he still believes he's a 3-4-5-6 hitter and Leyland sticks him in 7-8-9 spot, he could sulk his way through the season, and we don't have any alternatives to catch. I think he has the capability to be the teams best lead-off option if he embraces the role completely.

I like Polanco at the bottom of the order, however don't think Leyland would even consider it. I think Granderson is more of a #3 or #6 hitter and that he's taking one for the team by trying to lead off which causes him to look at too many pitches and puts him in bad count positions which leads to strike outs.

Ivan Rodriguez
Placido Polanco
Carlos Guillen
Gary Sheffield
Magglio Ordonez
Curtis Granderson
Craig Monroe
Sean Casey
Brandon Inge

However Leyland would likely switch Casey and Granderson in my line-up favoring the wily veteran LHB over the youngster LHB. I'd consider the switch when facing a LHP.

Shaggy, I like this lineup. IMHO, Sheffield makes more sense batting cleanup, with Ordonez protecting him.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I have many thoughts on the lineup:

1. Pudge should be tried at leadoff, against LHP. I'm quite open to using Granderson at leadoff versus righties, though.

2. I think Granderson may have worn down in the second half. Would like to see Infante get some more starts in CF, against LHP. But I would not want a platoon situation there.

3. Polanco will be fine at #2, if he's healthy.

4. Guillen should be no lower in the lineup than #3. His beautiful OBP is wasted as a #5 hitter.

5. Why can't leadoff batters have high K rates? Ron LeFlore used to K a lot. And I think Tony Phillips did too, but I would have to research that. It's all about OBP, for your leadoff guy. Steals are nice too, but not critical.

6. Sean Casey should never, ever bat higher than sixth. But I could live with him at #6.

[whitecapwendy]

Do you suppose that the thought of putting Pudge at leadoff might be for the purpose of teaching him to be a more patient hitter? That would force him to look at a few pitches. He always seems to hit better if he is not swinging at the first pitch.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Do you suppose that the thought of putting Pudge at leadoff might be for the purpose of teaching him to be a more patient hitter? That would force him to look at a few pitches.

I think it's more so the fact that Pudge creams lefty pitching, and that Granderson has struggled badly to reach base against lefties. I think you will still see Granderson at lead-off most days.

[estrepe1]

If I was to make a lineup it would be the following:

1. Granderson
2. Polanco (Hope he rebounds)
3. Guillen
4. Sheffield
5. Magglio
6. Rodriguez
7. Monroe
8. Casey
9. Inge

I put the worst hitter on the team in the 8 slot. Inge gives them a bit of power to flip the lineup with.

People complain about strikeouts at the top but really they do less damage up there than they do at the bottom of the lineup. Plus I think Granderson will walk a bit more next season.

I don't mind Lynn's lineup at all though.

I personally would flip flop Casey and Rodriguez if I was putting Sheffield at 3 and Guillen at 2.

I think Guillen would be perfect for 1 or 2 with his high OBP.

[Tigercub33]

My lineup would be:
1. Pudge
2. Polanco
3. Guillen
4. Sheff
5. Magglio
6. Granderson
7. Monroe/Thames/???
8. Inge
9. Casey

[84 Lives!!!]

Against tough LH'ers:

1. Pudge
2. Polanco
3. Sheff
4. Maggs
5. Guillen
6. Granderson
7. Monroe
8. Casey
9. Inge

Against RH'ers, and some LH'ers (journeymen type), my lineup would be:

1. Granderson
2. Polanco
3. Sheff
4. Maggs
5. Guillen
6. Pudge
7. Casey
8. Monroe
9. Inge

[Ron Burgandy]

The proper lineup, in my humble opinion, is:

Granderson
Polanco
Guillen
Sheffield
Ordonez
Casey
Pudge
Monroe
Inge

[Tigercub33]

You know, if Infante can be a backup in CF...why can he not also be an option in LF? I think Infante in LF could be interesting. All told he could probably be as productive as Craig Monroe.

[zachcadillac]

Do you suppose that the thought of putting Pudge at leadoff might be for the purpose of teaching him to be a more patient hitter? That would force him to look at a few pitches. He always seems to hit better if he is not swinging at the first pitch.

Possibly. It's difficult to imagine Pudge changing his ways after 15 years, but he put together some remarkably tough at-bats from that spot last season.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Possibly. It's difficult to imagine Pudge changing his ways after 15 years, but he put together some remarkably tough at-bats from that spot last season.

I liked Inge in that spot, when he was used there in 2005. He seemed to hit to all fields more, and took more walks. Didn't swing from his *** all the time.

[Yoda]

The proper lineup, in my humble opinion, is:

Granderson
Polanco
Guillen
Sheffield
Ordonez
Casey
Pudge
Monroe
Inge

I'm with you here.

[estrepe1]

The only problem I have with Ron's is that it places Casey too high in the lineup. They need to focus on limiting the at bats of bad hitters.

[Shaggy Ry]

I liked Inge in that spot, when he was used there in 2005. He seemed to hit to all fields more, and took more walks. Didn't swing from his *** all the time.

There was an article on Inge from his home town paper where he sort of took a shot at Trammell and Co. for trying to make him something he wasn't at the plate, and Leyland and Co. let him be who he is.

PS - Sean Casey is not the worst hitter in our starting line-up.

[chasfh]

Why? Guillen is a much better option there. I think I'd even bat Casey second ahead of Polanco.

What do you think Leyland will do though? Polanco probably won't be as bad as he was last year. He'll be a fixture at the #2 slot again.

Yoda, the purpose of Henning's lineup was not to guess what Leyland would do. The purpose was for Henning to play manager for a day and put together his own best lineup.

And given the nine players at hand, I think it's a darn good lineup -- the third best lineup available, in fact. Flip Slugger Monroe and Banjo-Hitter Casey at 5 and 6, and there's your second-best lineup for those nine guys. Put Monroe-Pudge-Casey at 5-6-7 -- that's your best lineup.

[tiger337]

PS - Sean Casey is not the worst hitter in our starting line-up.

He was last year. If you include his time with the Pirates, then maybe you can give the title to Polanco. Will Casey be the worst hitter next year? Well, I don't think he'll repeat his .650 OPS but he should still be a serious contender for the title.

[Just Some Dude]

My lineup is

(R) Pudge
(S) Guillen
(R) Sheff
(R) Maggs
(L) Granderson
(R) Monroe
(R) Polanco
(L) Casey
(R) Inge

It spreads our rightys out, no more than 2 in a row. If Pudge can embrace the leadoff role and do well there this lineup could work well. Granderson will most likely hit more HR's this year and in the 5 hole he will get many more RBI chances. Batting Guillen 2nd makes a ton of sense to me, he has pop and he has the OBP from both sides of the plate. I would however consider swapping Polanco and Inge in the 7 and 9 hole.

[estrepe1]

PS - Sean Casey is not the worst hitter in our starting line-up.

Using his regular season stats with the team you need to prove that to me. Given his age and health problems I don't see much chance he improves.

He was last year. If you include his time with the Pirates, then maybe you can give the title to Polanco. Will Casey be the worst hitter next year? Well, I don't think he'll repeat his .650 OPS but he should still be a serious contender for the title.


This is right on.

[Shaggy Ry]

Why look at only his regular season stats? What about his playoff stats? What about his previous three seasons stats or his 'o6 Pittsburgh stats before the trade?

I know he might not look it, but I wonder if Casey was a juicer. Was there an injury reason why he dropped from 24 HR and .534 SLG in 2oo4 to 9 HR and .423 SLG in 2oo5?

Either way, I don't think Casey is nearly as bad as he was for us during the regular season. Even of he continues his downward slide he should hit .280BA with a .350OBP and .775OPS.

[Gabraham]

Granderson
Polanco
Sheffield
Ordonez
Guillen
Rodriguez
Monroe
Casey
Inge

-----

[squid]

Why is everyone so down on Casey, the guy's a career .300 hitter? Granted his 06 season was poor, but he this was his first stint in the American League. I think he will bounce back and return to his normal numbers.

That said, here's my lineup choice, using the speed, contact, power thought.
1 Guillen.....gets on base, switch hitter, can steal.
2 Polanco.....excellent contact, can hit behind runner.
3 Sheff....power.
4 Pudge....back to speed, and has power.
5 Casey....see Polanco (with a piano on his back).
6 Maggs....mini Sheff (he won't run down Casey on a double).
7 Granderson.....great speed could be a leadoff hitter someday
8 Inge/Monroe.....pickem
9 Monroe/Inge.....see above

My thinking is that, you want speed, contact and power in the first three hitters, why not use that logic throughout the lineup?

Flame away

[dt35456884]

Why is everyone so down on Casey, the guy's a career .300 hitter? Granted his 06 season was poor

And 2003. And 2002. Even in '05 and the first part of '06 (with Pittsburgh), he just wasn't good enough for a first baseman.

He's been very lackluster since 2001 save for one season.

[Gabraham]

That said, here's my lineup choice, using the speed, contact, power thought.
1 Guillen.....gets on base, switch hitter, can steal.
2 Polanco.....excellent contact, can hit behind runner.
3 Sheff....power.
4 Pudge....back to speed, and has power.
5 Casey....see Polanco (with a piano on his back).
6 Maggs....mini Sheff (he won't run down Casey on a double).
7 Granderson.....great speed could be a leadoff hitter someday
8 Inge/Monroe.....pickem
9 Monroe/Inge.....see above



Yeah, this lineup makes no sense to me.
Guillen has too much power to bat leadoff, and Pudge doesn't have nearly enough power to bat fourth. And batting Ordonez down in the six hole is bizarre.
Anyway, it's imaginative, and props for that.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Squid, welcome to the board! The issue with Casey is that he has been in decline for about 4 years now, with only one good year out of those 4 ......

[TheCouga]

The proper lineup, in my humble opinion, is:

Granderson
Polanco
Guillen
Sheffield
Ordonez
Casey
Pudge
Monroe
Inge

I'll second that.

[Nate7474]

Pudge
Guillen
Sheffield
Ordonez
Granderson
Monroe
Casey
Inge
Polanco

the reason I like this is because you have your deadly 4 then at 5 you have another leadoff type hitter with a power guy right behind him at 6th. I use this type of lineup with the high schoolers I coach because of the lack of power I typically have and it works out really well for me. Guillen is protected by Sheffield who has Ordonez behind him. Besides that Pudge will see all fastballs batting first with Guillen behind him because it forces teams to get that first out. Ideally Ordonez would clear the bases and you have Granderson to basically "leadoff" but also has the power and ability to drive in runs. Polanco gets on base at the bottom of the order for pudge and really makes pitches work before having to go through the tough top 4 again. Let me know what you think.

[Nolan]

I don't think that Polanco is a very good fit at the 9 hole. Especially behind Inge. Polanco's greatest asset is his ability to hit behind the runner. Well, Inge isn't exactly an on-base machine so I would like to see Polanco bat in the 2 hole next year.
This is what I like:
RHP
Granderson
Polanco
Guillen
Sheffield
Magglio
Casey
Monroe
Pudge
Inge

LHP
Pudge
Polanco
Guillen
Sheffield
Magglio
Granderson
Monroe
Casey
Inge

As for the comments about Casey being the worst hitter in the line-up, that is obviously incorrect.

[tigermojo]

Polanco (Hopefully can get back to '05 form)
Guillen (Has everything Leyland likes as a 2nd hitter)
Sheffield (Best hitter on the team bats 3rd)
Ordonez (Improves slightly this year)
Granderson (Good protection for Maggs, less pressure on him)
Rodriguez (Not batting in the bottom 3rd keeps him happy)
Monroe (Drives in the guys in front of him who get on base)
Casey (Change of pace bats between two RH power hitters)
Inge (Great production for a 9th hitter)

I like the idea of Pudge leading off but I think '06 was a fluke year for Polanco. He had nagging injuries most of the season plus his serious shoulder injury. He'll get his OBP back over .350 next season. Depending on how he does in the spring I'd like to see Polanco leading off.

Guillen at number 2 makes sense because Leyland likes having power in the 2 slot and Guillen provides power and on base ability. The thing I don't like about it is he may not get many opportunities to drive runners in with low OBP guys Monroe and Inge batting before him. Not to mention Casey clogging up the bases. But we need to count on Sheff and Maggs to drive in runs and Guillen is our best hitter to put in front of them.

Granderson is going to be a good run producer. Batting 5th gives him more chances to drive in runners and takes some pressure off of him. Let the veterans Polanco and Rodriguez bat leadoff. This puts a power LH bat in the middle of our lineup. Something we wanted all last season.

[Yoda]

As for the comments about Casey being the worst hitter in the line-up, that is obviously incorrect.

Last year he was. I'm currious to hear why you disagree. He was beyond horrible.

[Ron Burgandy]

The only problem I have with Ron's is that it places Casey too high in the lineup. They need to focus on limiting the at bats of bad hitters.

Casey is 6th to break the string of right handed hitters. I think it's an important consideration. Further, it's not like Pudge, Monroe, or Inge are OBP-monsters, so I don't think putting Casey there hurts as much as you think.

[estrepe1]

As for the comments about Casey being the worst hitter in the line-up, that is obviously incorrect.

In what way was he not the worst hitter on the team last season?

[Tigercub33]

In what way was he not the worst hitter on the team last season?

Didn't you see him in the World Series? He was awesome...that was the REAL Sean Casey. I don't care what he did in the regular season of 2006 - that means nothing.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Sean Casey has X-Ray vision. He can grow extra limbs at will. Sean Casey invented nitroglycerin, and injects it daily ......

[estrepe1]

Didn't you see him in the World Series? He was awesome...that was the REAL Sean Casey. I don't care what he did in the regular season of 2006 - that means nothing.

Yes 17 at bats mean so much more than 184.

[Tigercub33]

Yes 17 at bats mean so much more than 184.

Drink some coffee, I was being sarcastic.

[estrepe1]

Drink some coffee, I was being sarcastic.

I was posting that in case someone actually had a serious argument to that effect. Because I can see someone saying something to that respect.

[Tigercub33]

I was posting that in case someone actually had a serious argument to that effect. Because I can see someone saying something to that respect.

Oh.

I am sure some people think that. I had to remind my Dad that Casey had performed only slightly better than Neifi Perez during the regular season. Still, he preferred Casey over Shelton. He has a short memory though.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Drink some coffee, I was being sarcastic.

Before reading a TC33 post, I normally recommend at least 3 shots of Cuervo .... :wink:

[Tigercub33]

Before reading a TC33 post, I normally recommend at least 3 shots of Cuervo .... :wink:

How are you not dead yet, I have like 7K posts...that is 21K shots of tequilla.

[DaYooperASBDT]

How are you not dead yet, I have like 7K posts...that is 21K shots of tequilla.

Had my liver surgically replaced with a small Mexican dude ....

[motownphilly]

Didn't we know that already?

I don't see Polanco batting 9th. Bat him 2nd and move Guillen down to 5th.

This is the correct thinking. Who cares about Slugging Percentage for a #2 hitter. Even Earl Weaver didn't worry about the home run until the 3rd spot.

Polanco is great with runners in scoring position...he should be 2nd or 6th, but no lower...his contact hitting ability needs to find the plate more than Inge, Pudge, or Casey's streakiness.

[Just Some Dude]

Hmm no one slammed my lineup, must not of been half bad :)

[DaYooperASBDT]

Tinkering a bit, I come up with:

Pudge
Granderson
Guillen
Sheffield
Ordonez
Polanco
Casey
Monroe
Inge

I would really like that lineup against lefties. And Polanco would be a decent #6, as he shows some ability at driving in runs, even without a ton of power.

Could flip Polanco and Granderson, also.

[Nolan]

Sean Casey is a 32 year old with a career .302 average. If anyone on this website believes that he cannot bat .300 next year, than they are wrong. Casey obviously just need time to work into a groove, and to get used to a few AL pitchers. I think that he really started hitting his stride at the end of the year though.
IF you pay attention only to numbers, which I believe to be a serious error, than Caseys .245 average in Detroit last year wasn't very good. Doesn't anyone in this forum remember the HORRIBLE start that Casey got out to last season with the Tigers? You guys may remember a player named Chris Shelton who started the season on an absolute tear, than completely bombed the rest of the season, his BA was over and around .300 for most of the year. It only landed at .273 after many months of .150 hitting. It is hard to come back from a horrible start and obviously if you get off to a good start you can look really good.
What I am saying is that next year, when Casey gets his normal amounts of at-bats and gets used to the AL pitchers, he will be a .300 and above hitter.
Anyways, if anyone read my post, I never said that Casey wasn't the worst hitter on the Tigers last year, I said that he isn't the worst hitter in the Tigers current line-up.
I stick with the line-up that I previously proposed.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Sean Casey is a 32 year old with a career .302 average. If anyone on this website believes that he cannot bat .300 next year, than they are wrong.

I am wrong.

But all kidding aside, there are several reasons to believe that Casey could struggle in 2006.

1. He is 32, but has a body that is closer to 52.

2. He has shown a general downward trend over the past several seasons:

2002 - Batted .261, with a .334 OBP, but only a .362 SLG
2003 - Batted .291, with a .350 OBP, and a so-so .408 SLG
2004 - Batted .324, with robust OBP and SLG (.381/.534)
2005 - Batted .312, with a .371 OBP, and a so-so .423 SLG
2006 - Batted .272, with a .336 OBP, and a paltry .388 SLG

Clearly, his best seasons were at ages 24-26, with the exception of 2004. Would love to see a repeat of 2004, but I doubt he has that left in him. His legs are so bad he can barely move any longer.

Please understand, I like Sean Casey, he is a tremendous guy to have for "team morale". But I believe that his best hitting days are behind him.

[Charles Liston]

Casey's AB's need to be minimized, as he is hands-down the worst hitter on the team. It's embarrassing to bat your first baseman 9th, but he's got to be in the bottom third. Monroe and Inge are used to the bottom third, and they'll still be there.

I think that Rodriguez at leadoff is a goofy idea, but I'll bet you $10 (Canadian) that Leyland does it and that Pudge leads off on opening day. It's Jimmy's twisted way of getting him out of a run-production spot. Guillen will bat 3rd to break up the righties, and Granderson 6th.

[Nolan]

Obviously Sean Casey's ability to hit for a high average depended upon how fast he can run.lol No matter how slow (well not too slow), Casey runs, I don't think that will have any more affect on Casey in 2007 than it did when propelled his average was .324 and had a .534 slg %.

[motownphilly]

Please understand, I like Sean Casey, he is a tremendous guy to have for "team morale". But I believe that his best hitting days are behind him.

I have a hard time buying anyone is a forever .300 hitter. I thought that of D-Meat and was disappointed.

[tiger337]

Obviously Sean Casey's ability to hit for a high average depended upon how fast he can run.lol No matter how slow (well not too slow), Casey runs, I don't think that will have any more affect on Casey in 2007 than it did when propelled his average was .324 and had a .534 slg %.

His .300 batting average did not depend on speed but it did depend on his back and legs being healthy. I think he can bat .300 if healthy but I'm not expecting it. And even if he does stay healthy and bat .300, he does not have enough power for a first baseman.

[tiger337]

IF you pay attention only to numbers, which I believe to be a serious error, than Caseys .245 average in Detroit last year wasn't very good. Doesn't anyone in this forum remember the HORRIBLE start that Casey got out to last season with the Tigers? You guys may remember a player named Chris Shelton who started the season on an absolute tear, than completely bombed the rest of the season, his BA was over and around .300 for most of the year. It only landed at .273 after many months of .150 hitting.

I remember Casey's horrible start. It lasted for 2 months. I also remember Shelton slump and it was no worse than Casey's slump. He did not have any months where he batted .150. In May, June and July, Shelton batted .260/.321/.370. That is not acceptable but it's no worse than Casey's .245/.286/.364. Casey was brought in to be an upgrade for Shelton and he failed for two months.

It's certainly possible that Casey needed to adjust to American League pitching especially since he did his best hitting against the Cardinals. Shelton also needs to adjust. I'd rather see Shelton get that chance than Casey. Shelton might never hit again but I believe he has better chance of breaking through and actually having a good season than Casey.

[sabretooth]

Henning might be onto something with his proposed lineup, if he can come up with an alternative for Casey at five. That's just ludicrous.

It's more of a reflection of the fact that Casey would be our fifth-best hitter against RHP if Thames and Shelton don't play. That's not a welcome state of affairs, but it is reality. This is why a lot of us would like to have seen another LH bat obtained. If we can't get a front-line player, how about a superb part-time player? Wouldn't Cattalanatto look great in a Tiger uniform in 2007 (salivate, salivate)?

[DaYooperASBDT]

Obviously Sean Casey's ability to hit for a high average depended upon how fast he can run.lol No matter how slow (well not too slow), Casey runs, I don't think that will have any more affect on Casey in 2007 than it did when propelled his average was .324 and had a .534 slg %.

Have you ever tried to swing a bat without a healthy set of legs under you? Your power comes from a variety of muscles and joints. Strong wrists help, but to really turn on a ball and drive it, you must get something from the lower body. Without healthy legs, you can't get the hips and torso involved as much. I'm not talking about "leg hits" at all.

I do think Casey can improve on 2006, but I just can't see him topping .290 BA, .350 OBP, .425 SLG. To me that's the high end for 2007, and it could be a lot lower.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I have a hard time buying anyone is a forever .300 hitter. I thought that of D-Meat and was disappointed.

Then there's Gregg Jeffries ..........

[Nolan]

I would much rather have Casey starting this season as opposed to Shelton.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I would much rather have Casey starting this season as opposed to Shelton.

Well, we all lost a lot of faith in Chris Shelton last year. He got on that hot streak of 9 homers in his first 13 games, and was the talk of all of MLB for a while.

But those of us who really knew Shelton, and his plate approach, could sense a true "crash and burn" phenomenon coming. He is not about the long majestic home run, down the LF line. When at his best, Shelton is hitting to all fields, with many doubles and equal numbers of homers to RF and LF. Check his hitting charts from 2005 and 2006, they should support this.

After that insane stretch in April, something absolutely snapped for Shelton mentally, and he started actually TRYING to hit the ball 550 feet, instead of using the same approach that got Chris to the big leagues. We all quickly tired of watching Shelton's futile swings at one low & away after another. It was quite a brutal experience, but hopefully a learning experience for Mr. Shelton.

If he can recapture his swing of old, and return to his ways to hitting to all fields, Shelton will far outperform Casey. But after the hideous batting display of 2006, he will have to return to Toledo and prove himself "cured" of the dreaded Damion Easley Disease.

Can he be cured? Absolutely. Don't forget that his career minor league stat line reads: .332/.428/.539 But come April, yes Casey should be the primary first baseman. But he may want to bring a good book along with him ....

[DaYooperASBDT]

BTW, I just checked Shelton's hitting charts from '05 and '06, at http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=430828&statType=1

Looking at his charts, of games played at Comerica Park:

In 2005, I count at least 15 extra-base hits to right field or right-center field (9 to center or left)

In 2006, he had 5 xb hits to the opposite field (11 to center or left)

That's a classic case of Damion Easleyitis.

[chasfh]

BTW, I just checked Shelton's hitting charts from '05 and '06, at http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=430828&statType=1

Looking at his charts, of games played at Comerica Park:

In 2005, I count at least 15 extra-base hits to right field or right-center field (9 to center or left)

In 2006, he had 5 xb hits to the opposite field (11 to center or left)

That's a classic case of Damion Easleyitis.

The other thing I see on this chart is the overwhelming number of ground ball outs to the left side -- contrast this with the number of flyouts to the right side.

This is not totally unusual -- Monroe has the same issue, for instance. But while you see Monroe also concentrate his singles and doubles to left, Shelton's singles go mostly to center and right, and he sprays his doubles all over the place.

This supports what Andy said earlier because when players try to pull the outside pitch, the most common result is a pulled ground ball. I think the implication is clear: if Shelton can lay off trying to pull the outside pitch and learn to go with it to right instead, I think he might find better success. This will especially be true if he can get some homers to right, since that will be the ultimate validation of the approach.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I think the implication is clear: if Shelton can lay off trying to pull the outside pitch and learn to go with it to right instead, I think he might find better success. This will especially be true if he can get some homers to right, since that will be the ultimate validation of the approach.

Precisely. He was doing those things in 2005, and a return to that approach will serve Chris best in the long run ....

[Barrie]

Leyland won't have a set lineup everyday. He'll move guys around like we saw all year.

Here's my lineup:

Granderson CF
Polanco 2B
Guillen SS
Ordonez RF
Sheffield DH
Rodriguez C
Monroe LF
Casey/Shelton 1B
Inge 3B