2007 First Baseman [Archive] - MotownSports.com Message Board

ypsieast

11-03-2006, 02:52 PM

Who will be the primary 1B for the Tigers in 2007?
Let's compare some of the options.

also check out 2007 DH thread (http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?p=955873#post955873)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stats (based on lst 3 years: 2004-2006): Age - (bats) - AB - AVG/OBP/SLG - OPS - K/100 AB

CURRENT TIGERS:
C SHELTON - 26 (R) ; 807 ; .281/.348/.477 ; .825 ; 26
C GUILLEN - 31 (S) ; 1399 ; .320/.384/.508 ; .892 ; 8

FREE AGENTS:
S CASEY - 32 (L) ; 1497 ; .306/.360/.456 ; .816 ; 8
D ERSTAD - 32 (L) ; 1199; .278/.328/.379 ; .707 ; 17
N GARCIAPARRA - 33 (R) ; 1020 ; .300/.350/.484 ; .834 ; 8
W HELMS - 30 (R) ; 682 ; .295/.351/.460 ; .811 ; 21
R KLESKO - 35 (L) ; 849 ; .271/.380/.435 ; .815 ; 17
M STAIRS - 39 (L) ; 1183; .264/.346/.440 ; .776 ; 21
T WALKER - 33 (L) ; 1211 ; .286/.355/.444 ; .799 ; 11

UNNATURAL POSITION:
F CATALANOTTO - 33 (L) ; 1105 ; .299/.360/.433 ; .793 ; 11
A HUFF - 30 (L) ; 1629; .276/.339/.463 ; .802 ; 14
C LEE - 30 (R) ; 1833 ; .290/.350/.517 ; .867 ; 13
A RAMIREZ - 28 (R) ; 1604; .304/.357/.569 ; .926 ; 12 *** signed with Cubs

POSSIBLE TRADE TARGETS:
P BURRELL - 30 (R) ; 1472 ; .266/.382/.488 ; .870 ; 29
C DUNCAN - 26 (L) ; 280 ; .293/.363/.589 ; .952 ; 25
A DUNN - 27 (L) ; 1672 ; .249/.374/.533 ; .907 ; 33
N JOHNSON - 28 (L) ; 1204 ; .282/.397/.479 ; .876 ; 20
C KOSKIE - 33 (L) ; 1033 ; .253/.332/.461 ; .793 ; 24
M TEIXEIRA - 27 (S) ; 1817 ; .288/.368/.549 ; .917 ; 20
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If anyone wants a name added to this list, let me know.

Discuss...

dt35456884

11-03-2006, 02:54 PM

ABC

Anyone But Casey

tiger337

11-03-2006, 03:03 PM

ABC

Anyone But Casey

ABC. I like that. I feel the same way about Casey as I did about Young last year and Higginson before that.

Big Toe

11-03-2006, 03:04 PM

Shelton, Nomar or Dunn for me. Or Teixeira.

Tyrus

11-03-2006, 03:05 PM

Nomar. We can get him without giving up pitching.

ypsieast

11-03-2006, 03:08 PM

For the ABC club: What's your plan A and plan B look like?

The cream of the crop looks like Ramirez-Lee-Nomar. What if we can't get one of them?
Casey isn't perfect, but he's left handed and has higher OPS/lower Ks than the other B-level FAs. Cat, Huff, Walker, Klesko? Trade? Move Guillen?

JonBenke

11-03-2006, 03:21 PM

1. Mark Teixeira - gold glove, still young, much power/left handed.
2. Adam Dunn - OBP, and a ton of power from the left side.
3. Nomar Garciaparra - OBP, solid defense, good top of the order hitter.
4. Nick Johnson - injury problems, but a nice power bat from the left side.
5. Aubrey Huff - left handed, and really .. not a bad "final option", I say.

RobSk

11-03-2006, 03:24 PM

ypsi,

I guess my main problem with Casey is that I just flat don't believe that he's going to be near an .816 OPS again. He had a super year in 2004, but both 2003 and 2002 were pretty awful, and when you look at things that way, 2004 looks like a major outlier, not a season with major predictive value.

In addition to that, the man looks (now we're into subjective garbage) like he's not taken care of himself physically. He looks way older than 32.

If I couldn't sign one of the obvious upgrade FAs, and it were my choice, assuming that Chris Shelton is gone from the organization, I'd probably prefer to start the season with the two guys that played 2b and 1b for Toledo this year. My guess is that they'd be the same or better, and wouldn't cost 5-6 million. Those guys are Josh Phelps and Ryan Raburn. Phelps had a .900+ OPS and Raburn had an .840 OPS.

I'd also consider Jack Hannahan. He'd probably be Casey level offensively (or perhaps a bit better), but would be a very solid defender.

Rob

qsilvr2531

11-03-2006, 03:45 PM

Hannahan can't hit enough to carry 3B, he certainly won't do the job at 1B.

Can Rayburn actually play 1B? It seems like he's a bit small for the position, but I really don't know how big he actually is.

84 Lives!!!

11-03-2006, 03:55 PM

Benke, I'm going to steal from you:

1. Mark Teixeira - gold glove, still young, much power/left handed. High trade cost.
2. Aramis Ramirez - Free, best bat on the market. But RH'ed, still need another lefty for balance from somewhere...
3. Adam Dunn - OBP, and a ton of power from the left side. Will cost much less in trade than Teix, I think.
4. Nick Johnson - injury problems, but a nice power bat from the left side. Trade cost similar to Dunn, or closer to Teix?
5. Aubrey Huff - left handed, I wouldn't mind him as a 5th option...

estrepe1

11-03-2006, 03:57 PM

I would rather try Shelton out again than run Aubrey Huff out there as the 1B.

ballmich

11-03-2006, 04:03 PM

Trade for Corey Koskie. He can platoon with Shelton at 1B and backup Inge at 3B. He makes $2 million in 07 and has a club option for 08 at $6.5 million (with a $250k buyout). at this price, he is a steal.

Last three years vs RHP: .262/.357/.500

and i certainly trust him to field the position more than Cat, Huff, Lee, Aram, or Dunn. it wouldn't surprise me if he turned out to be the best fielding 1B out of everyone on that list, though Tex is pretty good.

and you might as well add Burrell to this position as well, since if we traded for him, this is where i'd probably play him. i think LF at comerica would eat him up...

Tigertown Rats

11-03-2006, 04:07 PM

I really like Nick Johnson. I know he's had injury troubles, but when he's in there he's exactly the kind of hitter we could use. He has decent power and great plate discipline (110 BB vs 99 K with .428 OBP)

jadefalcon

11-03-2006, 04:12 PM

ypsieast

11-03-2006, 04:16 PM

Trade for Corey Koskie.
Is he a legit trade candidate? MIL just traded for him, is he realistically on the blocks?

ballmich

11-03-2006, 04:22 PM

Is he a legit trade candidate? MIL just traded for him, is he realistically on the blocks?

why not? their infield projects to be: Fielder, Weeks, Hardy & Hall.

the key thing with Koskie is his health, as he missed the last half of 2006. but if healthy, he will likely be a reserve for the Brewers. i don't know if there is such a thing as the "trading block", but he can probably be had for a low level prospect or two. the trade from Toronto was an out-and-out salary dump, and the jays got little to nothing in return AND picked up a good portion of his salary... which is why he only is $2 million in 2007 and the 2008 buyout is only $250k.

tiger337

11-03-2006, 04:48 PM

I think Garciaparra might be a real possibility. There was some talk about him coming to the Tigers last year if I recall correctly.

84 Lives!!!

11-03-2006, 04:59 PM

What about Laroche???!!! :wink:

I think he would actually be #6 on my list, or tied for #5 with Huff.

#1 Teix. Absolute best player we could get at the position, and fills LH'ed need in spades. No doubt in my mind he should be #1 target, and I would trade Nate + Humberto + Rodney or ??? for him. I would try to include Shelton or Larish in place of the question marks, change the "or" to a "+", and try to talk Texas out of Teagarden as well... #2 Ramirez, best hitter on the market, free agent (no trade cost), although he's a RH'ed hitter. But the "free" part really gets me though... :grin: (even though I know it's not really free by losing our 1st rounder and a big chunk of cash...). #3 and 4: Dunn & Johnson - I think cost the least in trade terms. And both are much more proven hitters than LaRoche... Except for Nick's injury history, both get two plusses over LaRoche. #5 Huff: He'd be a utility guy at 3rd, 1st, LF, DH... that would get 450-500 AB's I think. The only reason I have him on a par with LaRoche, is that he is free and, if DD absolutely does NOT want to trade any pitching, it leaves Huff, or Dellucci, or Cat, or similar, at a higher point on the list. Plus, LaRoche has proven himself only 1 year, so there's just a bit of doubt on him; his trade cost would probably be similar to Teix's (youth, upside, etc...), and most are pretty positive that the Braves have no interest in trading him, I gather...

If it were a straight trade-only list, trade cost not considered, he might still be #4 or 5 for me:

1. Teix, 2. Crawford (not for 1st base, but he'd be my #2 trade target, regardless of position...), 3. Dunn (if Krivsky wants to dump him cheap), 4. Johnson (Nats are willing to trade him for pitching?), 5. LaRoche (can the Braves be talked into trading him? Might be doubtful... Also, what kind of package would they be asking? Prohibitive???).

But I would still wanna inquire with the Braves about him... just to check. :grin:

pyrotigers

11-03-2006, 05:02 PM

My options based on what I think could actually happen:

1. Nomar
2. Casey
3. Shelton

My #1 choice would be Aramis Ramirez, but I doubt we can sign up or that he would be interested in playing 1b if we did. Same with Carlos Lee who I hope we get as a LF/DH instead. I'm also assuming Tex and Dunn aren't traded.

TigerPride

11-03-2006, 06:11 PM

I like the versatility of Huff. Can play 3B/1B/LF/RF. Would be less expensive than other options without costing a high draft pick. LH hitter with some pop who doesn't K much.

With his versatility, Tigers could carry someone like Shelton on the roster instead of an extra utility guy like Santiago or Perez.

keystone

11-03-2006, 06:20 PM

Don't overlook Lyle Overbay (29)/L of Toronto - They're looking for pitching and their best prospect plays 1b.

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG
2006 157 581 82 181 46 1 22 92 5 .312 .372 .508

estrepe1

11-03-2006, 06:32 PM

Huff can stand at third. But I wouldn't say he can play it.

Johnny Mac

11-03-2006, 06:34 PM

Nomar or Big Tex

jadefalcon

11-03-2006, 06:38 PM

Huff can stand at third. But I wouldn't say he can play it.

He's also pretty bad in LF and RF.

Huff would ideally be a sort of last resort imo, but he might not be available when all of our other options could, in theory, be exhausted.

GartenSpartan

11-03-2006, 06:40 PM

Huff can stand at third. But I wouldn't say he can play it.

Is he also less than serviceable at first? I think he could be at least a decent option to be a full time DH or play a bunch of positions when guys need days off...his bat is decent from the left side, albeit maybe more expensive than he should be.

RobSk

11-03-2006, 06:49 PM

Big Toe

11-03-2006, 09:28 PM

Finding a cheapo option to platoon and/or compete with Shelton works for me if we can't land Tex, Dunn or Nomar.

Take a look at Nomar's strikeout totals for the season. Ridiculous (in a good way).

HankusPankus

11-03-2006, 09:35 PM

I would add Cliff Floyd to the list. He's got some history with Dombrowski and Leyland, has played some first earlier in his career and he switch-hits. He probably wouldn't be that expensive. The biggest question mark with him, as always, is health - and he might have an easier time staying healthy playing first instead of the outfield.

kitna2furrey

11-03-2006, 09:44 PM

MrStrunz

11-03-2006, 09:53 PM

All my eggs in the basket for Texiera.
I would deal Robertson,Rodney Infante and Shelton.
Trade Sanchez to Braves for Saltalamacchia
Then we go out and get The "Cat".

tigerkid23

11-03-2006, 10:17 PM

How about Jay Gibbons? That sounds like something DD would go and get.

Not to play first base.

Todd Helton

He's owed a ridiculous amount of money through like 2012. Pass.

Erstad

He's pushing 40 and isn't very good anymore. Casey would be better.

Berkman--We have done business with Houston alot in the past

lmao...I wish.

Jeff Conine

Good backup, not a starter. Casey will give you the same thing and probably more.

Russell Branyan--I can see DD taking a risk on him. He has had sporadic pop. Maybe Detroit could be the place where he blossoms.

See Conine.

Jeff Kent

Won't happen.

jadefalcon

11-03-2006, 10:17 PM

All my eggs in the basket for Texiera.
I would deal Robertson,Rodney Infante and Shelton.
Trade Sanchez to Braves for Saltalamacchia
Then we go out and get The "Cat".

I'd perfer to keep Sanchez, especially if we trade Rodney. Rodney was a very valuable member of this team, and it may be kind of difficult to replace him if he is dealt. However, I think that Sanchez would be very capable of filling his spot to an extent (although he may not be as effective as Fernando). I think it would be a mistake to trade both because Zoom can't fill the gap from stater to Jones on his own.

AlaskanTigersFan

11-03-2006, 11:38 PM

ypsieast

11-03-2006, 11:42 PM

How about Jay Gibbons? That sounds like something DD would go and get.

Todd Helton

Erstad

Berkman--We have done business with Houston alot in the past

Jeff Conine

Russell Branyan--I can see DD taking a risk on him. He has had sporadic pop. Maybe Detroit could be the place where he blossoms.

Jeff Kent

Erstad [edit: uggh! .379 SLG and still 17 Ks per 100 ABs; no thanks] is the only FA of this group, so I'll add him to the list. I want to hold off on listing trade candidates unless they are truly legitmate candidates for a trade.

ypsieast

11-03-2006, 11:43 PM

I would add Cliff Floyd.
Floyd's on the DH list. He hasn't played 1B since 9 games 1997 - 10 years!

pyrotigers

11-03-2006, 11:48 PM

Erstad will be lucky to get a minor league deal somewheres, he's done.

jadefalcon

11-03-2006, 11:57 PM

Todd Helton would be great I think. He was dealing with injuries this year. I got to witness him first hand a few times. He's still got the perfect gap stroke. I wouldn't be upset at all if the Tigers obtained him.

I really am excited to find out who we get as a 1B player this next season. If it is a trade, I just hope it doesn't cost too much.

We could probably get him for less if Illitch picks up most of his salary. I think he would be a great pickup (~.400 OBP, decent power, gap power, still a .300 hitter). I think he would be great in Comerica.

monkeytargets37

11-04-2006, 12:04 AM

Nick Johnson could DH and we could give Shelton another shot to start the year and resign Matt Stairs in case Shelton doesnt produce.

ypsieast

11-04-2006, 12:15 AM

We could probably get him for less if Illitch picks up most of his salary. I think he would be a great pickup (~.400 OBP, decent power, gap power, still a .300 hitter). I think he would be great in Comerica.
He's due $16.6 mil/yr. for 4 years and another $19mil in 2011. That's a HUGE commitment for a guy whose SLG fell .150 in the last 2 years. Don't get me wrong, he has (coors induced) HOF numbers to this point, but I don't think I'd mortgage the future of the team on him.

dt35456884

11-04-2006, 12:24 AM

Trading for Helton would be pure madness.

chasfh

11-04-2006, 12:42 AM

What, I'm gonna be the first person in this thread to say this, 41 posts in?

Carlos Guillen will be our first baseman next year.

jadefalcon

11-04-2006, 12:42 AM

Trading for Helton would be pure madness.

Why?
His decline?
His contract?
Would Colorado ask for too much?
Please explain.

JonBenke

11-04-2006, 12:46 AM

What is the guess-timation on what a trade for Mark Teixeira would look like.

My guess...

TEXAS GETS:
P - Nate Robertson
P - Fernando Rodney
P - Zach Miner - or Humberto Sanchez *
1B - Chris Shelton

DETROIT GETS:
1B - Mark Teixeira

* - would depend, for me, on if Texas thinks 'Berto Sanchez could actually be an MLB starter. I am guessing they'd want two starters, but .. yeah. That's my opinion, and with Adam Eaton a free agent, and really .. not much around Kevin Millwood, it'd make the most sense to get a couple of starters.

dt35456884

11-04-2006, 12:46 AM

Why?
His decline?
His contract?
Would Colorado ask for too much?
Please explain.

His decline.
His contract.

AlaskanTigersFan

11-04-2006, 10:53 AM

Buddha

11-04-2006, 11:16 AM

No way on Helton. his contract is from a bygone era. The only team that could really afford to take that on would be the Yankees.

Plus, doesn't he have a no trade clause? We all know what town is always at the top of players' no trade lists...

AlaskanTigersFan

11-04-2006, 11:21 AM

I think getting to the world series though might of changed that. Dont you think?

jake

11-04-2006, 11:30 AM

Dan Gilmore

11-04-2006, 12:10 PM

I think your undervalue'ing Helton DT. This guy had a TON of injuries this past year. Year before he was hurt to, although not as much. I think his decline will rebound tremendously. I think you can expect a .300/20/90 season from him next year.

Why would we expect his injury problems to get better as he ages, not worse?

.300/20/90 is not remotely worth 16 million a year.

cruzer1

11-04-2006, 12:13 PM

estrepe1

11-04-2006, 12:20 PM

I think your undervalue'ing Helton DT. This guy had a TON of injuries this past year. Year before he was hurt to, although not as much. I think his decline will rebound tremendously. I think you can expect a .300/20/90 season from him next year.

I don't think he is. Look at his career park splits:

Home: .371/.465/.676
Away: .294/.393/.507

He is getting older as well. You look at his age and injuries combined with the fact that he is under contract until 2011 with a 23 M dollar option for 2012. He is going to be paid 16.6 M from 2007 to 2010 and 19.1 M in 2011... So while those road splits from his career would be worth having on a team (his road splits this year were MUCH worse), it isn't good enough to lock that kind of money up for that long.

Of course he can also opt out of his contract after 2007. :cheeky:

I don't think we can tell at this point if he is in decline or not. But there is a good chance that he is. Let Colorado deal with that contract. You can find a player that is just as good for cheaper.

chasfh

11-04-2006, 12:40 PM

Again I say: Carlos Guillen will be the Tigers first baseman in 2007.

estrepe1

11-04-2006, 12:41 PM

Again I say: Carlos Guillen will be the Tigers first baseman in 2007.

And who will be the short stop?

snoogit

11-04-2006, 12:42 PM

Again I say: Carlos Guillen will be the Tigers first baseman in 2007.

Carlos Guillen is not moving to First base.

jadefalcon

11-04-2006, 01:06 PM

Another situation to watch out for is Delgado in NY, where there are hints that he may demand to be traded, although he might be iffy because of shoulder surgeries after the season that might keep him out until May. Of course that would only lower his trade value.

I thought that those rumors were very stange. I don't think he will be traded, but I would like to see the Tigers make an offer.

jadefalcon

11-04-2006, 01:10 PM

I would say Nate Robertson and a minor league pitching prospect. Don't underestimate Nate.

Yeah, Nate and Andrew Miller. I would love Tex, but I don't think it's feasible. The Rangers are going to ask for a king's ransom, and I doubt DD will be willing to pay a king's ransom. If Texas has a really high opinion of Nate, then by all means, get it done.

Canon Fodder

11-04-2006, 01:31 PM

Carlos Guillen is not moving to First base.

There is still way too much of the off-season to play out before the previous statement could be set in stone.

I think we all agree Ilitch won't hesitate to bring in a BIG name. Would anyone honestly be surprised if the Tigers were to acquire A-Rod. (I'm not saying this is likely, but it's far from impossible. And I don't think there's anyway A-Rod is in pinstripes for spring training.)

So say the Tigers were to pull a major deal for A-Rod. He moves to 3B (bumping Inge to SS?) or goes to SS moving Guillen to 1B. One trade brings in a big bat, potentially improves defense at SS and 3B (does anyone doubt Inge would be better defensively than Guillen?) and we "gain" a solid, versatile 1B.

The only two guys I see not moving anywhere (via trade or by position) are Pudge and Polanco. Everyone else -- outfielders included -- could moved to a new position. There's just too much to play out yet and any trade or signing DD does could shuffle the deck in a lot of ways.

Buddha

11-04-2006, 01:53 PM

I think getting to the world series though might of changed that. Dont you think?

No, I don't.

JonBenke

11-04-2006, 01:56 PM

No, I don't.
You think people still have the same opinion of coming to Detroit .. as they did two/three years back?

You still think we'll have to over pay for free agents?

jadefalcon

11-04-2006, 02:06 PM

You think people still have the same opinion of coming to Detroit .. as they did two/three years back?

You still think we'll have to over pay for free agents?

Free agents haven't lost their lost their love for money. We have a better chance of getting guys, but we'd still have to pay a premium price to get anybody, but everybody has to pay that same premium price. Guys are more open to the idea of coming to Detroit, but they still like money, a lot.

TheCouga

11-04-2006, 03:27 PM

Another situation to watch out for is Delgado in NY, where there are hints that he may demand to be traded, although he might be iffy because of shoulder surgeries after the season that might keep him out until May. Of course that would only lower his trade value.

If there was really a way for us to get Delgado, I would pee my pants with glee.

I love Delgado, he's one of my favorite players, and he is such a fundamentally sound hitter.

And he's lefthanded and he takes walks. And crushes the ball.

TheCouga

11-04-2006, 03:32 PM

My top three options are:

1. Shelton
2. Nomar
3. Nick Johnson

I would like to explore options where we don't give up much first (like options that don't involve a trade). I still think Shelton is a good player, and could possibly do a great job next year. He would almost certainly be a more solid option than Casey. Johnson would be great, and even if we can trade for him, he can split time at first and DH with Shelton. In fact, I would love to see the Shelton bet hedged a little bit by obtaining another DH/1B type that could move to first if Shelton sucks again, but can stay at DH if Shelton is good.

Wow...remember the time when we had too many 1B/DH types, and now we don't really have a solid option at either position? What the hell happened?

chasfh

11-04-2006, 04:51 PM

And who will be the short stop?

Good question. Perhaps Brandon Inge. Maybe a good free agent such as Julio Lugo or a trade for a good SS like Alex Rodriguez. Maybe it will be a not so good free agent like Alex Gonzalez or Craig Counsell, or a trade for a SS we're not considering. Maybe we stick Jack Hannahan there for a year. It almost certainly won't be Ramon Santiago.

Then of course, we have another guy on the roster who's played a fair amount of shortstop. :wink:

Look, I'm not saying I want Guillen at 1B. I'm just predicting he'll end up there. Big difference.

chasfh

11-04-2006, 04:52 PM

Carlos Guillen is not moving to First base.

And you believe this why?

MrStrunz

11-04-2006, 04:57 PM

If we can get Texiera from the Rangers it will not be for Bonderman.looking over the pitching roster they have a dire need for lefties.
It would take Robertson and Rodney in my estimation.

jadefalcon

11-04-2006, 05:27 PM

Don't know if this is posted anywhere else, but when does free agency begin? Is there also a date when teams can begin trading players, or are teams allowed to do that as soon as the WS ends? Also, when are the winter meetings? Thanks in advance.

AlaskanTigersFan

11-04-2006, 05:29 PM

11th of November.

thewave84

11-06-2006, 10:07 AM

For all the people who think that Texas is going to trade Teixiera for Robertson or some combination of lesser prospects (Sanchez/Miner/Tata/etc), check out this report from CNNSI:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/11/03/friday.scoop/index.html

That's right, even Tejada from BAL wasn't enough, they wanted Tejada + Bedard.

keglerv

11-06-2006, 10:23 AM

If thats true and they don't lower their demands then Tex remains a Ranger.

cruzer1

11-06-2006, 10:32 AM

It's good to want.

irishmick79

11-06-2006, 10:37 AM

How about a platoon of Casey and Wes Helms? Helms played 88 games at 1st for florida last year, and while he didn't have great numbers, he had a pretty decent OBP. In my mind he'd be a decent 2nd or 3rd option on the FA market if the Tigers can't land any of the premier talent available.

84 Lives!!!

11-06-2006, 10:58 AM

These are the quotes from that CNNSI article that strike me:

"Tejada would have been gone by now if Orioles owner Peter Angelos didn't pull back, vetoing the perfectly good offer of Ervin Santana and Erick Aybar from the Angels at the July 31 trading deadline."

Pitching rules, even if it isn't as sexy as a "big bat" "Name". But there's no reason to believe the Rangers have ever learned this. Although I do hold out hope...

Here's something else that caught my eye: Some execs could see Teixeira going to Detroit for, say Jeremy Bonderman, who, like Teixeira, is two years away from free agency. But one executive said, "If I were Detroit, I wouldn't do that."

Lastly, per Benke's question:

What is the guess-timation on what a trade for Mark Teixeira would look like?

My guess...

TEXAS GETS:
P - Nate Robertson
P - Fernando Rodney
P - Zach Miner - or Humberto Sanchez *
1B - Chris Shelton

DETROIT GETS:
1B - Mark Teixeira

....

This is similar to what I've been thinking, although obviously, Texas doesn't care much about what you or I think. But: I'm guessing that Robertson, Rodney, Humberto, and Jeff Larish, for Teixeira and Teagarden, is at least a starting point for discussion...

CaliforniaDreaming

11-06-2006, 11:06 AM

And who will be the short stop?

Neifi Perez:dead:

estrepe1

11-06-2006, 11:08 AM

This is similar to what I've been thinking, although obviously, Texas doesn't care much about what you or I think. But: I'm guessing that Robertson, Rodney, Humberto, and Jeff Larish, for Teixeira and Teagarden, is at least a starting point for discussion...

I don't think that would be a good idea from the Tigers side. They have depth at pitching but not so much that they can trade away three pitchers in one deal.

Tigercub33

11-06-2006, 11:33 AM

I guess I will be the first to shatter the dreams of many...Texeria is not coming to Detroit. The Rangers will demand a King's Ransom and I don't think DD parts with what it would take (Bonderman).

I think DD's legacy in Detroit is tied to Bonderman more than any single player. Bonderman is a Tiger as long as DD is in the Front Office (in some capacity)

ballmich

11-06-2006, 11:36 AM

There is still way too much of the off-season to play out before the previous statement could be set in stone.

I think we all agree Ilitch won't hesitate to bring in a BIG name. Would anyone honestly be surprised if the Tigers were to acquire A-Rod. (I'm not saying this is likely, but it's far from impossible. And I don't think there's anyway A-Rod is in pinstripes for spring training.)

i for one, would be highly surprised if Arod is moved this year. i wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees decided that they want to move him. but Arod has already stated that he does not want to be traded, and his agent has stated that he will not be traded this winter (presumably will invoke his full no-trade clause). as much as i want him (at either SS or 3B), i just don't foresee a situation where the yankees trade the best SS/3B in the game this winter.

to move Guillen to 1B, you absolutely need to acquire a pretty big bat to replace him at SS. short of a trade for Arod or Tejada, i doubt that it happens this year. plus, you don't want to force Guillen to 1B the winter before he becomes a FA. it might make him unhappy because it could affect his value on the FA market next year, which could negate our ability to get him extended (which i think is probably a pretty big goal this winter).

Tigercub33

11-06-2006, 11:42 AM

Regarding ARod. Why would a player invoke his NTC if it is obvious his team no longer wants him? It doesn't make sense to me...

estrepe1

11-06-2006, 11:49 AM

Regarding ARod. Why would a player invoke his NTC if it is obvious his team no longer wants him? It doesn't make sense to me...

Because he likes his teammates and he likes the city. I think Alex wants to prove he can do it in New York.

84 Lives!!!

11-06-2006, 11:59 AM

Regarding ARod. Why would a player invoke his NTC if it is obvious his team no longer wants him? It doesn't make sense to me...

A-Rod said he would waive his NTC if the Yankees REALLY didn't want him on the team anymore. Which is not going to happen, at least based on what's been said so far by Cashman.

If Cashman got a "blown-away" deal, he might go to A-Rod and say "Alex, I really wanna do this deal..."

Chances of A-Rod being a Yankee in 2007, IMO: 99.999%

Tigercub33

11-06-2006, 12:09 PM

Because he likes his teammates and he likes the city. I think Alex wants to prove he can do it in New York.

From what I understand, his teammates and the city are not too big into him though.

The only reson I can understand invoking your NTC is if there was a place you did not want to go to (say Florida or Kansas City). Invoking it so you STAY with your team when they want to trade you strikes me as strange.

Basically, it was like Higgy saying he would invoke his NTC to ANYWHERE when it was obvious that the team was trying to get rid of him any way they could.

Domino

11-12-2006, 06:44 PM

Should we revisit this discussion now that we have Sheff? I know Leyland says he won't play him at 1b... but why not? I mean look at this lineup (regardless of order)

Palonco 2B
Granderson CF
Pudge C
Sheffield 1B
Maggs RF
Guillen SS
Monroe LF
Thames DH
Inge 3B

I mean that is honestly a pretty damn scary lineup. I guess I just don't quite get why Sheff wouldn't play some 1B.

estrepe1

11-12-2006, 06:57 PM

Leyland doesn't want Sheffield to play 1B because he doesn't want him to try to learn a new position and mess with his head. I don't think Sheffield really liked playing first base.

You want to keep Sheffield happy. A happy, motivated Sheff is dangerous to other teams, a mad, pouting Sheff is dangerous to his own team.

He will be the DH. And a very good one at that if he stays healthy.

CMRivdog

11-12-2006, 06:58 PM

apabruce

11-12-2006, 07:13 PM

Works for me, as long as he never smells right field again.

itgoesbuzz

11-12-2006, 09:13 PM

wheres john olerud atttt? bring this guy out of retirement, i loved that guy was a good hitter and won some gold gloves.

tiger337

11-12-2006, 09:19 PM

I'm gonna throw something out of left field into the mix. (Actually I stole it from another site)

Chris Duncan, a natural first baseman with the Cards. He is playing out of position there and has been critized for his outfield defense. What about trading Minor and or Infante for him?

Not a bad idea. His minor league record suggests that he won't hit for the high average he did this year but I think his power is legit.

estrepe1

11-12-2006, 09:21 PM

Not a bad idea. His minor league record suggests that he won't hit for the high average he did this year but I think his power is legit.

I like the idea as well. I wonder if the Cardinals would move him given that he is the son of the pitching coach, but it was pretty obvious he was a bad fit for them in the outfield. I know that the organization needs to think more of the team than of its coaches. So I imagine that if given a good enough deal that they would move him.

The deal might need to be quite a bit though....

Big Toe

11-12-2006, 11:06 PM

I imagine Duncan's dad would be happy to see him go elsewhere if it meant a chance to play all the time. That's not happening in St. Louis for obvious reasons. I'd be glad to have Duncan too.

I'd also like to give Shelton a chance during the spring to see if he can straighten things out, but I think there'd be room for both.

Charles Liston

11-12-2006, 11:12 PM

If there was really a way for us to get Delgado, I would pee my pants with glee.

I love Delgado, he's one of my favorite players, and he is such a fundamentally sound hitter.

And he's lefthanded and he takes walks. And crushes the ball.

This is the correct answer.

Domino

11-12-2006, 11:19 PM

If we can get Casey for a decent price, I think we should keep him.

estrepe1

11-12-2006, 11:24 PM

If we can get Casey for a decent price, I think we should keep him.

I am hoping someone signs him before the deadline to offer arbitration so that the Tigers can get compensation for him....

Basically I think he should be the last option for the Tigers at first base. Just far too injury prone (and I am not just basing that on the playoffs)

theycallmeKat

11-12-2006, 11:36 PM

estrepe1

11-12-2006, 11:41 PM

Trade Monroe, Maroth and Shelton for Texiera and a prospect.

Wow... you must think the Texas GM is stupid.

JonBenke

11-13-2006, 12:30 AM

Wow... you must think the Texas GM is stupid.
Exactly -- what a horrid offer, and really .. I am starting to see that, realistically, we're most likely not going to package a deal to land Teixeira.

I would have thought: Robertson, Shelton, Rodney, and Miner would be enough, but, I don't know -- he's so much, exactly what we need, but I am not sure on what Texas would want, but they would want allot, and two starters, a good RP, and a decent 1B, who could bounce back in that park...

I don't know, but I know it'd cost allot more than -- Monroe, Maroth and Shelton, and I love how you want TEX and a prospect :knocked:

I think we would have a better shot at getting Nick Johnson or Adam Dunn, but, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Johnny Mac

11-13-2006, 12:33 AM

ive seen some rediculous trade offers on these boards, but that is one of the worst

JonBenke

11-13-2006, 12:37 AM

ive seen some rediculous trade offers on these boards, but that is one of the worst
Oh, I have been guilty of some pretty A SPECIAL ideas, but never where I try and get a left handed, gold golve, slugging All-Star for, basically, nothing.

monkeynuts

11-13-2006, 01:20 AM

I've got to believe that the Sheffield trade has at least mildly quieted the Bonderman/Teixeira rumors due to one of the potential fallback starters for next year (Sanchez) not being around.

JonBenke

11-13-2006, 01:26 AM

I never looked at 'Berto Sanchez as a possible starter, case we did trade Bonderman - never.

estrepe1

11-13-2006, 01:29 AM

I've got to believe that the Sheffield trade has at least mildly quieted the Bonderman/Teixeira rumors due to one of the potential fallback starters for next year (Sanchez) not being around.

Yeah I am pretty sure that the trade cements that fact in a lot of minds (it already was pretty concrete to me) that Bonderman is going to be one of the starters next season on this team.

In fact I would be surprised if you saw Robertson or Bonderman dealt this offseason.

I never looked at 'Berto Sanchez as a possible starter, case we did trade Bonderman - never.

I didn't either. Sanchez was likely to be a reliever this year if he made the team. I would have been mildly surprised if he cracked the rotation in the future years.

It did kind of indicate even more that Zumaya is going to be a reliever for the foreseeable future.

monkeynuts

11-13-2006, 01:49 AM

I never looked at 'Berto Sanchez as a possible starter, case we did trade Bonderman - never.

He was a possibility.

11-13-2006, 09:49 AM

I am hoping someone signs him before the deadline to offer arbitration so that the Tigers can get compensation for him....

Does anyone know exactly how compensation works? I know if we offer Walker arbitration, which I think we will, and he signs with another team we get that team's first rounder.

However, this is the first I've heard that a team signing a FA before the arbitration deadline must still give up picks. Can anybody explain how this part of compensation works? Also, what is the first day we can offer arbitration?

ypsieast

11-13-2006, 09:58 AM

Updated list of potential first basemen:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Stats (based on lst 3 years: 2004-2006): Age - (bats) - AB - AVG/OBP/SLG - OPS - K/100 AB

CURRENT TIGERS:
C SHELTON - 26 (R) ; 807 ; .281/.348/.477 ; .825 ; 26
C GUILLEN - 31 (S) ; 1399 ; .320/.384/.508 ; .892 ; 8

FREE AGENTS:
S CASEY - 32 (L) ; 1497 ; .306/.360/.456 ; .816 ; 8
D ERSTAD - 32 (L) ; 1199; .278/.328/.379 ; .707 ; 17
N GARCIAPARRA - 33 (R) ; 1020 ; .300/.350/.484 ; .834 ; 8
W HELMS - 30 (R) ; 682 ; .295/.351/.460 ; .811 ; 21
R KLESKO - 35 (L) ; 849 ; .271/.380/.435 ; .815 ; 17
M STAIRS - 39 (L) ; 1183; .264/.346/.440 ; .776 ; 21

UNNATURAL POSITION:
F CATALANOTTO - 33 (L) ; 1105 ; .299/.360/.433 ; .793 ; 11
A HUFF - 30 (L) ; 1629; .276/.339/.463 ; .802 ; 14
C LEE - 30 (R) ; 1833 ; .290/.350/.517 ; .867 ; 13
A RAMIREZ - 28 (R) ; 1604; .304/.357/.569 ; .926 ; 12 *** signed with Cubs
T WALKER - 33 (L) ; 1211 ; .286/.355/.444 ; .799 ; 11

POSSIBLE TRADE TARGETS:
P BURRELL - 30 (R) ; 1472 ; .266/.382/.488 ; .870 ; 29
C DUNCAN - 26 (L) ; 280 ; .293/.363/.589 ; .952 ; 25
A DUNN - 27 (L) ; 1672 ; .249/.374/.533 ; .907 ; 33
N JOHNSON - 28 (L) ; 1204 ; .282/.397/.479 ; .876 ; 20
C KOSKIE - 33 (L) ; 1033 ; .253/.332/.461 ; .793 ; 24
M TEIXEIRA - 27 (S) ; 1817 ; .288/.368/.549 ; .917 ; 20
------------------------------------------------------------------

estrepe1

11-13-2006, 10:02 AM

Does anyone know exactly how compensation works? I know if we offer Walker arbitration, which I think we will, and he signs with another team we get that team's first rounder.

However, this is the first I've heard that a team signing a FA before the arbitration deadline must still give up picks. Can anybody explain how this part of compensation works? Also, what is the first day we can offer arbitration?

If Walker is a type B free agent we get a pick between the second and third rounds.

You can offer arbitration anytime up until the deadline. If you sign someone before the deadline you will lose picks because the team will just offer arbitration knowing it will be turned down. I am not sure what the first day of the arbitration period is.

Big Toe

11-13-2006, 10:50 AM

I can't imagine we wouldn't offer arbitration to Walker anyways, so if we don't sign him we'll be getting that sandwich pick. (Isn't it between the first and second for type B?)

keystone

11-13-2006, 11:05 AM

I've got to believe that the Sheffield trade has at least mildly quieted the Bonderman/Teixeira rumors due to one of the potential fallback starters for next year (Sanchez) not being around.

That depends if Texas can get pitching from another source -FA or Japan.
If not they'll dangle Teixeira and/or Blalock.

At that point they might be willing to consider a pitching depth package (Ledezma/Miner?)rather than a 'star' pitcher. They need 2 SP a CF (gomez?) and another of (Thames?) (if they decide to move Wilkerson to 1b). They also have spare parts on their roster that DD would like such as Laird (c) and Arias (ss). It may be the one stop shopping spot that DD is looking for.

Big Toe

11-13-2006, 11:19 AM

You're just not going to get Teixeira for a package of unproven commodities (Dunn, perhaps, Teixeira, no way). Ledezma and Miner wouldn't be enough if we were the only other team in baseball. And of course there are plenty of other teams out there who'd love to have Tex.

chasfh

11-13-2006, 11:23 AM

Wow, I cannot believe that Darin Erstad is only 32. He's been in decline since he was 27.

He turned one Norm Cash-type season into lifetime financial security as well:

1997 Anaheim Angels $175,000
1998 Anaheim Angels $550,000
1999 Anaheim Angels $800,000
2000 Anaheim Angels $2,500,000
2001 Anaheim Angels $3,450,000
2002 Anaheim Angels $6,250,000
2003 Anaheim Angels $7,250,000
2004 Anaheim Angels $7,750,000
2005 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim $8,250,000
2006 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim $8,750,000
Career (may be incomplete) $45,725,000

estrepe1

11-13-2006, 11:26 AM

I can't imagine we wouldn't offer arbitration to Walker anyways, so if we don't sign him we'll be getting that sandwich pick. (Isn't it between the first and second for type B?)

Type A - 1st round pick and a sandwich pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds.

Type B - 2nd round pick and a sandwich pick between the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

I thought they eliminated the 2nd round pick compensation part of type B.

Type C (eliminated)

That depends if Texas can get pitching from another source -FA or Japan.
If not they'll dangle Teixeira and/or Blalock.

At that point they might be willing to consider a pitching depth package (Ledezma/Miner?)rather than a 'star' pitcher. They need 2 SP a CF (gomez?) and another of (Thames?) (if they decide to move Wilkerson to 1b). They also have spare parts on their roster that DD would like such as Laird (c) and Arias (ss). It may be the one stop shopping spot that DD is looking for.

Wilkerson would be a more likely option for a cheap trade than Teixeira. If they do decide to deal Big Tex it wouldn't be for players like Ledezma/Miner, Gomez etc.

DrWho17

11-13-2006, 11:52 AM

1. Granderson (L) CF
2. Pudge (R) C
3. Guillen (S) SS
4. Sheffield (R) DH
5. Texiera (S) 1B
6. Ordonez (R) RF
7. Luis Gonzalez (L) LF
8. Inge (R) 3B
9. Polanco (R) 2B

Trade Monroe, Maroth and Shelton for Texiera and a prospect
Sign Luis Gonzalez to a two year contract. He is still a decent outfielder and a left bat at a reasonable price.
Hehe, good thought, but if Texas agreed to that trade, you would seriously have to wonder what incriminating evidence the Tigers have on the Rangers GM.

zachcadillac

11-13-2006, 11:55 AM

I thought Wilkerson was a free agent. If not, he's a possible non-tender candidate.

Big Toe

11-13-2006, 11:57 AM

IIRC Texas has an option on him. I think it's $3.5 million, but my memory ain't so good.

DrWho17

11-13-2006, 11:59 AM

If we can get Texiera from the Rangers it will not be for Bonderman.looking over the pitching roster they have a dire need for lefties.
It would take Robertson and Rodney in my estimation.
Done, send it.

Tigercub33

11-13-2006, 12:03 PM

Wilkerson would be a good..and cheap option.

I was in favor of Wilkerson as a trade target last year, I remain in favor of him.

estrepe1

11-13-2006, 12:04 PM

I thought Wilkerson was a free agent. If not, he's a possible non-tender candidate.

IIRC Texas has an option on him. I think it's $3.5 million, but my memory ain't so good.

Wilkerson is not at free agency yet. He has 5 years of service time including last season. So he is arbitration eligible for one more season.

He is a Boras client so he likely wouldn't be a long term solution and I wouldn't say that he is a perfect solution. He has been terrible the last two seasons so he would definitely be a huge risk.

I wouldn't trade much more than spare parts for him and he wouldn't be on the top of my list of options.

He is a possible non-tender candidate as ZC states.

zachcadillac

11-13-2006, 12:32 PM

estrepe1

11-13-2006, 12:59 PM

Wilkerson is a nice thought if he can be had cheaply, but I doubt he is even under consideration. Right or wrong, I think the Tigers will hesistate to add another high-strikeout bat to the roster, unless that bat can deliver 35-plus home runs.

Oh I agree. I was just saying that if someone wants a first baseman cheap from Texas (which is what Ledezma, Miner, Gomez, and Thames would be) then go for Wilkerson....

Basically people are talking about trading nothing for one of the better young hitters in the majors.

Anything short of a package involving Bonderman or Verlander is not going to cut it for Teixiera.

zachcadillac

11-13-2006, 01:14 PM

Yeah, I wasn't disputing your analysis. There's no chance Texas parts with Texeira for the packages that have been bandied about here. I was simply thinking out loud about how Wilkerson would fit.

cruzer1

11-13-2006, 01:47 PM

I wonder what it would take to get James Loney if the Dodgers keep Nomar.

Edman85

11-13-2006, 01:56 PM

Did anybody see Sheffield play first base? It was disgusting. He's got no business playing there.

ypsieast

11-13-2006, 02:25 PM

Did anybody see Sheffield play first base? It was disgusting. He's got no business playing there.
Not to mention, upon signing with Detroit, the Tigers had to promise not to play him at 1B. Sheff at 1B is absolutely NOT going to happen, and shouldn't anyway.

DaYooperASBDT

11-13-2006, 09:02 PM

Helton? Or is he still vastly overpaid ???

Casimir

11-13-2006, 09:10 PM

Wow, I cannot believe that Darin Erstad is only 32. He's been in decline since he was 27.

Was one of my favorite players. I've scanned over his stats a few times this offseason hoping to see that his recent performance has been fluky and proclaim that he'd be an ideal fit for LF or 1B, but I think I'll just stay quiet instead.

84 Lives!!!

11-13-2006, 09:23 PM

... Basically people are talking about trading nothing for one of the better young hitters in the majors.

Anything short of a package involving Bonderman or Verlander is not going to cut it for Teixiera.

I think lesser than Bondo or JV could pull off a Teixeira trade. But.... it really depends on the Ranger's perspective. As in, if it's "Win Now!!!", then you are correct, it'd take at least a Bondo or JV.

If the perspective is (a) "We don't want to pay Boras money to this guy... do we have any other options?", or (b) "Let's get some good young pitching to rebuild our staff, so 1 of Blalock or Teixeira has to go, whoever gets us the best package...", or (c) "Teixeira could help us fill alot of holes...", or any combination of (a), (b), or (c)...

Then they might "settle" for a package of Nate, Rodney, and 1 of Shelton/ or Larish... and they might ask DD to include Jurrjens in this trade as well.

I'm not saying DD would be interested in giving up those guys for Teix, or that that is what Texas is looking for... I'm just saying I think the above trade could be a conceivably acceptable to the Rangers. So it wouldn't necessarily have to include Bondo or JV. However... if they're thinking that they would be willing trade Teix, but only for a premium top-of-the-rotation guy.... then we're back to Bondo or JV again...

I wouldn't do any of those trades. After half-emptying the vault to get Sheffield...

I'm ready for cheaper options. In trade cost at least...

JonBenke

11-13-2006, 09:33 PM

My signature has been changed, because I think Teixeira just isn't going to happen, which is okay. I do think, however, Nick Johnson and Adam Dunn are more viable trade options, with a Robertson lead package. I'd also like to see about getting Barry Zito, because that duo would work perfect for me.

Zito/Dunn - or - Zito/Johnson

I think we need to add another LH BAT, and either one of these would work perfect, while also fitting into a position of major need - 1B.

jadefalcon

11-13-2006, 09:37 PM

Zito/Dunn - or - Zito/Johnson

I could go for some of that. :grin:

What would it take to get Ben Broussard from Seattle?

My preferences:
1. Dunn
2. Johnson
3. Broussard

GartenSpartan

11-13-2006, 09:53 PM

How about Chad Tracy from Arizona? I think he's pretty much viewed as a 3rd baseman in Arizona now, but he has experience playing 1st. I don't know how quick Arizona would be to be willing to deal him, but it has to be about as much interest as Washington would have in dealing Nick Johnson.

84 Lives!!!

11-13-2006, 10:16 PM

How about going after Rockies minor leaguer Joe Koshansky? He's like Larish except he's proven himself at AA, hits for a higher BA (.285-ish) and OPS (.900+), and you could take a chance at plugging him in at 1st Base next year...

The fallbacks would be to go back to Shelton, or have Cat signed as a super-sub guy and stick him there, at least as a platoon...

But... in terms of trade cost, I don't think you'd have to give the Rockies too much pitching... Colon & Tata? Or Miner/Vasquez + ??? I don't know what it would be... but I think not exceedingly costly. He's stuck behind Helton for the next 5 years... We can always sign Casey to be a backup as well... but first try to get more production out of Koshansky...

Also, I am really hoping that DD tried for Iwamura (and wins the posting...). He's a LH'ed power bat that you can plug in the infield where needed I think... At least it would help with our LH'ed depth...

DaYooperASBDT

11-13-2006, 10:24 PM

Monroe and Robertson for Dunn. Then sign Delucci or The Cat to platoon with Thames in LF, until Maybin is ready. Call it a winter !!

monkeynuts

11-13-2006, 10:31 PM

Monroe and Robertson for Dunn. Then sign Delucci or The Cat to platoon with Thames in LF, until Maybin is ready. Call it a winter !!

Then what would our rotation be?

Bonderman, Rogers, Verlander, Maroth (who knows if he is healthy), Ledezma?

DaYooperASBDT

11-13-2006, 10:35 PM

I think Maroth will be fine. Colon, or maybe Grilli for the 5th spot.
Keep Ledezma in the pen.

estrepe1

11-13-2006, 10:40 PM

Then what would our rotation be?

Bonderman, Rogers, Verlander, Maroth (who knows if he is healthy), Ledezma?

Its not worth it. There are certain players doomed to a life of fake message board trades. Robertson is one of those players. Lets accept it and move on.

Before someone suggests Zito. Think about the amount of years you are giving someone that has gotten progressively worse and already has a large workload on his arm. No thank you.

I think Robertson is here to stay at least another year. And like I said in the dream offseason thread I predict he will have a solid year and be subject to trades on this message board at the deadline and into the offseason.

If Jamie Walker leaves he will by default become the most underrated pitcher on the team.

All of this isn't to say they will definitely keep Robertson. Anything can happen, even Verlander being traded. I just think it is unlikely at this point.

I think Maroth will be fine. Colon, or maybe Grilli for the 5th spot.
Keep Ledezma in the pen.

Colon or Grilli for the 5th spot? Are you sure? I would rather stick with the top 4.

AlaskanTigersFan

11-13-2006, 10:44 PM

Why haven't we given Phelps a chance? Kids numbers look solid. Even though he isn't our left hander....

chasfh

11-14-2006, 08:20 AM

Colon or Grilli for the 5th spot? Are you sure? I would rather stick with the top 4.

If we had a 4 or 4-1/2 man rotation, we wouldn't have to think so hard about the fifth spot.

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 09:51 AM

If we had a 4 or 4-1/2 man rotation, we wouldn't have to think so hard about the fifth spot.

Even then I would want to keep Robertson over Maroth at this point.

AlaskanTigersFan

11-14-2006, 09:58 AM

Estrepe/Micro/OU/Yoda - why haven't we reeally given Phelps a shot?

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 10:21 AM

Estrepe/Micro/OU/Yoda - why haven't we reeally given Phelps a shot?

Well he has only been here one year. And they wanted a veteran at first base last season when Shelton was struggling.

I wouldn't mind seeing them give Phelps a shot but I don't see them going into next season with a relative unknown at 1B.

AlaskanTigersFan

11-14-2006, 10:22 AM

thx

Ron Burgandy

11-14-2006, 10:25 AM

If we trade Robertson, I'd like to see us sign Gil Meche for the #5 spot. At worst he should be a league average 5th starter, but he has the stuff to be a solid #2 or #3. Let Chuck Hernandez see if he can straighten him out.

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 10:28 AM

I just read today that half the teams in MLB have contacted Meche (according to his agent, so skepticism is probably warranted). He also claims that a third of them claim he's their top target. I think he's going to be way overpriced.

Tigercub33

11-14-2006, 10:47 AM

I could go for some of that. :grin:

What would it take to get Ben Broussard from Seattle?

My preferences:
1. Dunn
2. Johnson
3. Broussard

I think Broussard is a FA...so all it would take is $$$

tiger337

11-14-2006, 10:49 AM

If we had a 4 or 4-1/2 man rotation, we wouldn't have to think so hard about the fifth spot.

You have mentioned this a lot. What would be your plan? Would you have pitchers throw fewer pitches per start or would you just let the innings pile up?
Do you think that pitchers can throw more than they have been typically throwing in modern times? My feeling is that some pitchers could handle the workload of a 4 man staff and some couldn't and this wouldn't be any different than the way it was in the 60s and 70s. I'm a little worried about young pitchers though. For example, Verlander got a tired arm in a 5 man rotation this year.

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 11:28 AM

If Broussard's a free agent that's the first I've heard of it. I've looked at a lot of lists and never seen his name. Also, it would've made no sense whatsoever for Seattle to deal a decent player (Choo) to Cleveland for him if he were going to be a free agent. I'm pretty sure it's not true.

zachcadillac

11-14-2006, 11:30 AM

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 11:33 AM

It looks like 06 was his first arbitration eligible season so Seattle's got him for a couple more years.

kwales

11-14-2006, 11:46 AM

84 Lives!!!

11-14-2006, 11:49 AM

I'm also reluctant to give up Nate right now, even though I've previously "volunteered" him in trades for a 1st baseman...

At this point, that is why I'm advocating going after a AA to a AAAA player that at least could "hold-down" the position until a better option comes along... say Shelton or Larish develops (which could be at least a year or two away), or Teixeira becomes a FA... And you back him up by signing Cat or Huff to take over if it becomes necessary. Plan B so to speak...

I think Koshanksy could be had cheap from the Rockies. Pitching, and I don't think the highest end of pitching either. Maybe Tata?

Unless Krivsky wants to dump Dunn on us cheap, look for a LH'ed minor league 1B'man that is MLB-ready, and has some potential; and is available...

zachcadillac

11-14-2006, 11:56 AM

I'm probably in the minority here but I really don't want to see the Tigers trade any more pitchers this year. I'd be perfectly content with re-signing Sean Casey and giving Shelton another shot at it, especially since we have Sheffield now.

I don't want to re-sign Casey under any circumstances. I do agree, however, that the Tigers might be better served shopping for an inexpensive placeholder rather than a big name.

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 12:00 PM

The only possible reason I could envision myself being OK with Casey returning is if the only alternative is another mediocrity who'll cost us a pick because they were offered arbitration.

I also agree with the bargain-hunting philosophy, and I'd like to see someone on the cheap side competing with Shelton for at bats.

Shaggy Ry

11-14-2006, 12:00 PM

keglerv

11-14-2006, 12:17 PM

I'm coming around to bringing back Sean Casey. My first option would be to trade Monroe and parts, however I'd rather bring back Casey than sign somebody elses Type-A free agent and lose our first round draft pick. Casey was horrid with us during the regular season, however he is definifely better than that. He doesn't walk too much, but he'd be fine in the bottom 3rd of our line-up.

Nomar Garciaparra a Type-B free agent? That's ridiculous, what team wouldn't want him over Casey, Catalanotto, Dellucci or even Huff for that matter?

Is there any chance Garciaparra comes off of the left coast??

Unless a deal of Monroe for a left handed bat comes about, I would have no interest in Nomar whatsoever. We really need a left handed bat in the line up before looking at anymore right handers. As it stands now we have Granderson and Guillen and to me that is a real issue that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

tiger337

11-14-2006, 12:33 PM

If Casey bounces back even to his 2005 form, he would be ok in the bottom of the line-up. Given his age and body type, I suspect he's on the decline though. Another problem is that he is very injury prone. I don't want to see a situation where he gets hurt, Guillen switches to first and Santiago or Perez becomes the starting shortstop for an extended period. He will probably require a two year contract too.

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 12:35 PM

Agree with 337. If Casey's on the team, we NEED a legit backup at first (i.e. Shelton).

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 12:36 PM

tiger337

11-14-2006, 12:39 PM

Unless a deal of Monroe for a left handed bat comes about, I would have no interest in Nomar whatsoever. We really need a left handed bat in the line up before looking at anymore right handers. As it stands now we have Granderson and Guillen and to me that is a real issue that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I'd like to see a left handed bat too but i'd prefer a good right-handed bat to Casey. If it came down to Casey and a mediocre right-handed hitter, Casey might be better. I'd definitely take Garciaparra over Casey though. I'm hoping they go after Catalatanotto. He hasn't played 1B lately but has played quite a few games there. They could have some kind of LF/1B rotation with Monroe, Shelton and Catalanotto.

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 12:43 PM

I'd like to see a left handed bat too but i'd prefer a good right-handed bat to Casey. If it came down to Casey and a mediocre right-handed hitter, Casey might be better. I'd definitely take Garciaparra over Casey though. I'm hoping they go after Catalatanotto. He hasn't played 1B lately but has played quite a few games there. They could have some kind of LF/1B rotation with Monroe, Shelton and Catalanotto.

I think the Cat is on their free agent list. I would wait for the deadline to offer arbitration though he isn't worth giving up a first rounder.

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 12:43 PM

I was thinking that about arbitration too, but he made $8.5 million last year. I can't picture him turning down arbitration, as I think he'll have trouble getting that for two years. The hope of a first rounder and sandwich pick just isn't worth (IMO) the very, very likely $4 or 5 million overpayment of Casey.

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 12:44 PM

apabruce

11-14-2006, 12:56 PM

Do you think that pitchers can throw more than they have been typically throwing in modern times? My feeling is that some pitchers could handle the workload of a 4 man staff and some couldn't and this wouldn't be any different than the way it was in the 60s and 70s. I'm a little worried about young pitchers though. For example, Verlander got a tired arm in a 5 man rotation this year.

I thought the argument in favor of 4 man rotations was that throwing doesn't hurt arms, throwing while tired does. The advocates say that throwing with high pitch counts, not throwing every 4th day is what hurts arms.

So, I assume a 4 or 4-1/2 man rotation would need extra caution with pitch counts.

I'm for whatever works, and I don't know if a 4 man rotation has been tried in the last decade. If the Tigers have 5 healthy starters who are pitching well, I'm thinking it ain't broke so don't fix it. If there is a need, it may be worth an experiment.

keystone

11-14-2006, 02:17 PM

Blalock from Texas has been on and off the block. Although 25 he has declined the last two years although his BA against righties is still impressive. He may thrive at 1b.

84 Lives!!!

11-14-2006, 02:58 PM

Blalock from Texas has been on and off the block. Although 25 he has declined the last two years although his BA against righties is still impressive. He may thrive at 1b.

I don't know that he'll be cheaper, in terms of trade cost, than Dunn.

Maybe, if Krivsky is not so eager to move Big Adam as we'd like to think. But... I don't think the Rangers would be willing to let Blalock go for so easy a price either, even with his struggles the past 2 years.

If the trade cost is the same, I'd rather have Dunn. But if the Rangers are willing to trade him for "any" kind of pitching, and we can get him for less-than-Ledezma type pitchers, I'd be OK with that.

He could platoon with Shelton & Inge at the corners.

zachcadillac

11-14-2006, 03:02 PM

Shinzaki

11-14-2006, 03:15 PM

Zito will cost more than Ted Lilly, but I don't know if he'd produce results that justify the costs. I'd go after Lilly and with an eye towards moving Ledezma in a package with Monroe and Infante for a 1B or someone who could move to 1B.

84 Lives!!!

11-14-2006, 03:15 PM

Three things:

1. Krivsky can want pitching and an impact bat, I doubt he gets offered that. It'll be up to him to accept a decent pitcher and a decent bat (my guess), or hold onto Dunn for the next two years. I have a hard time believing that someone is going to give up a good position player who is also an impact bat, for basically a DH with an impact bat. I will almost bet money that if a deal is made for Dunn, it'll be for alot less than what Krivsky wants...

2. That article also mentioned Mike Jacobs. Think he'd be available? What would the Marlins want in return? Think he'd be a good platoon option with Shelton?

3. If Blalock costs less in trade than Dunn, I'd prefer him. If Krivsky can be talked down in trade price, then there should be a discussion between these two options, in my opinion...

Big Toe

11-14-2006, 03:18 PM

What's an "impact bat"? If Krivsky wants Monroe/Thames and a pitcher, sure, keeping in mind that Dunn's a free agent after '07 (IIRC). Pretty vague term.

Ron Burgandy

11-14-2006, 03:20 PM

What's an "impact bat"? If Krivsky wants Monroe/Thames and a pitcher, sure, keeping in mind that Dunn's a free agent after '07 (IIRC). Pretty vague term.

Exactly. If we're talking Miner and Thames, sign me up. If we're talking Robertson and Monroe, then try again...

84 Lives!!!

11-14-2006, 03:20 PM

What's an "impact bat"? If Krivsky wants Monroe/Thames and a pitcher, sure, keeping in mind that Dunn's a free agent after '07 (IIRC). Pretty vague term.

There's an option on Dunn for 2008.

Krivsky will want a National League-type player, one who can field as well as hit.

Dunn doesn't qualify, and neither does Thames. Monroe barely does...

JonBenke

11-14-2006, 03:25 PM

What is the word on Aubrey Huff, is he still going to re-sign with Houston?

keglerv

11-14-2006, 03:40 PM

What is the word on Aubrey Huff, is he still going to re-sign with Houston?

Any clues as to what kind of contract length and dollars he is looking for?

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 05:38 PM

Jerry Crasnick's article on ESPN.com today says Krivsky is interested in moving Dunn but will ask for pitching and an impact bat in return. Who would trade for Dunn if they must sacrifice a premium hitter to do so.

This is correct. Dunn isn't coming here.

Neither is Blalock. The Rangers would want a lot.

JonBenke

11-14-2006, 05:45 PM

This is correct. Dunn isn't coming here.

Neither is Blalock. The Rangers would want a lot.
Well if we're not going to trade for a 1B, we might as well talk -- in serious terms - about someone like Aubrey Huff, cause he seems like a no-brainer.

1. Granderson
2. Polanco
3. Guillen
4. Sheffield
5. Ordenez
6. Huff
7. Pudge
8. Monroe
9. Inge

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 05:48 PM

I didn't say they won't trade for a 1B I said they won't trade for Dunn or Blalock.

I honestly don't know what they will do. Huff isn't a terrible option but I am not sure I want him locked into the team for multiple years.

I wouldn't mind a Cat/Shelton platoon for a year.

DaYooperASBDT

11-14-2006, 07:10 PM

I like Huff. Jacobs? No way, he is way too streaky for my liking.

84 Lives!!!

11-14-2006, 08:32 PM

I like Huff. Jacobs? No way, he is way too streaky for my liking.

In a platoon, he only faces RH'ers though. I don't know exactly how streaky he is... but would his .906 OPS against righties, and .554 OPS against lefties have something to do with that?

Platoon him with Shelton and you might get some good production there...

tiger337

11-14-2006, 08:41 PM

I like Huff. Jacobs? No way, he is way too streaky for my liking.

Huff is streaky too. He's another absurdly slow starter like Pena and Monroe.

estrepe1

11-14-2006, 09:22 PM

Huff is streaky too. He's another absurdly slow starter like Pena and Monroe.

Pretty much. I kind of wonder if those guys just take forever to get their timing down or if it is just a fluke.

Casimir

11-14-2006, 09:25 PM

Huff is streaky too. He's another absurdly slow starter like Pena and Monroe.

I think I'd take that over Casey any day.

MAROTH4MVP

11-16-2006, 06:03 AM

how about helms? he gets no mention

jadefalcon

11-16-2006, 08:02 AM

how about helms? he gets no mention

He was signed by the Phillies.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/11/phils_sign_wes_.html

Yoda

11-16-2006, 08:15 AM

Huff is streaky too. He's another absurdly slow starter like Pena and Monroe.

You mean he doesn't show up when it counts?

ypsieast

11-16-2006, 09:48 AM

What about Todd Walker? ESPN FA tracker has him listed as 1B (probably a mistake). Anyway, I'm sure he can play 1B. He's more of an OBP guy, than power, but with the addition of Sheff, OBP might be more important to the lineup right now. He also doesn't strike out very much.
Tigers don't have much of a need for a guy who can play 2B, though. But I'm sure Walker could play LF in '08 if we sign/trade for a prototype 1B next year.

estrepe1

11-16-2006, 10:10 AM

Walker is terrible defensively almost anywhere on the diamond. He does have a decent ability to get on base but I am not sure if he is much of an upgrade he is over Casey. The only gain really is the fact that Walker doesn't have the same sort of health issues.

cruzer1

11-16-2006, 10:15 AM

I get the feeling Huff would cost a ton right now. His downside scares me. The safest bet for the Tigers is to re-sign Casey, which sounds more and more like the best way to go.

zachcadillac

11-16-2006, 11:54 AM

I get the feeling Huff would cost a ton right now. His downside scares me. The safest bet for the Tigers is to re-sign Casey, which sounds more and more like the best way to go.

I'm not terribly enthused about Huff, but I wish people would quit implying that Casey is a logical fallback plan.

Johnny Mac

11-16-2006, 11:56 AM

lets resign Carlos Pena

let Shelton hit the first half of the year and Pena hit the second half

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 12:01 PM

lets resign Carlos Pena

let Shelton hit the first half of the year and Pena hit the second half

Carlos Pena doesn't look that bad now...

He would be surrounded by a much better lineup than he was his first time around, I think he at least warrants a ST invite.

Johnny Mac

11-16-2006, 12:06 PM

Carlos Pena doesn't look that bad now...

He would be surrounded by a much better lineup than he was his first time around, I think he at least warrants a ST invite.

.370 obp in aaa and 19 hr

.351 obp in 18 games with boston

but why would he want to come back here, i dont even know if he is a fa

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 12:57 PM

but why would he want to come back here, i dont even know if he is a fa

To answer your 1st question...I have no idea

To answer your second...yes

zachcadillac

11-16-2006, 01:13 PM

Leave it to Sean Casey to make this board long for Carlos Pena.

Yoda

11-16-2006, 01:14 PM

Carlos Pena doesn't look that bad now...

He would be surrounded by a much better lineup than he was his first time around, I think he at least warrants a ST invite.

I wouldn't be at all opposed to that.

estrepe1

11-16-2006, 01:16 PM

Leave it to Sean Casey to make this board long for Carlos Pena.

Hey I never thought Pena was all that bad... plus it would make Hongbit so happy.

zachcadillac

11-16-2006, 01:26 PM

Hey I never thought Pena was all that bad... plus it would make Hongbit so happy.

Pena was my favorite Tiger while he was here. I just think it's hilarious to see the shift in attitude toward him, just a year after most of the members of this board were volunteering to drive him to the airport.

tiger337

11-16-2006, 01:26 PM

Who's driving the Pena Bandwagon this winter?

tiger337

11-16-2006, 01:28 PM

Hey I never thought Pena was all that bad... plus it would make Hongbit so happy.

I agree. He was a disappointment but he was not as bad as everyone said he was. And Hongbit does need something to ***** about.

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 01:29 PM

Who's driving the Pena Bandwagon this winter?

Well considering it just started up in this thread, I would say the Pena bandwagon looks like a red radio flyer right now.

Yoda

11-16-2006, 01:31 PM

I could see 84lives!!! or Domino leading the charge. If they don't then I might just have to.

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 01:33 PM

I could see 84lives!!! or Domino leading the charge. If they don't then I might just have to.

SNS would have risen to the challenge in a way none of us could ever imagine....

I am serious though, Pena would not be a bad option.

keglerv

11-16-2006, 01:40 PM

From the free press:

The Tigers announced today they had agreed to terms on a one-year contract with first baseman Sean Casey.

“Sean did a good job after joining the club and he was tremendous during the World Series,” Dave Dombrowski, Tigers president and GM, said in a release. “We’re happy to have Sean back and look forward to having him for an entire season. A true professional, he brings a solid left-handed bat to our lineup.”

Casey, 32, hit .272 (108-for-397) with 22 doubles, eight home runs and 59 RBIs in 112 games for the Pittsburgh Pirates and Tigers in 2006. Acquired by the Tigers in a two-player deal on July 31, he batted .432 (16-for-37) with five doubles, two home runs and nine RBIs in 10 games during the postseason. He hit .529 (9-for-17) in five games against the St. Louis Cardinals during the World Series.

Yoda

11-16-2006, 01:41 PM

I am serious though, Pena would not be a bad option.

Oh I agree. Assuming we can't sign anyone else that is better.

Yoda

11-16-2006, 01:42 PM

Big Toe

11-16-2006, 01:42 PM

OK. Hopefully Shelton's on the team too with the tubby injury prone guy playing first.

Yoda

11-16-2006, 01:44 PM

Ugh.. its true.

keglerv

11-16-2006, 01:44 PM

Well I guess we are looking at Casey with maybe a last shot for Shelton to make it a platoon. I was hoping for more of an upgrade, but I guess they weren't comfortable with what else was available and what it would cost.

keglerv

11-16-2006, 01:44 PM

Is this a joke?

Unfortunately no sir. I try to tell only good jokes.

estrepe1

11-16-2006, 01:47 PM

Well... 1 more year of Casey...

As Big Toe says hopefully Shelton makes it as well.

Its true:

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20061116&content_id=1741648&vkey=pr_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det

Madmanrick

11-16-2006, 01:48 PM

No joke, link below:

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20061116&content_id=1741648&vkey=pr_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 01:50 PM

keglerv (and any other link posters) have now become some of my least favorite people on this board....

Well, hopefully they get have 2006 World Series Casey and not 2006 Regular Season Casey.

kdog

11-16-2006, 01:50 PM

It's a 1 year deal. Based on the other FREE AGENT options, a Casey/Shelton 1B thing for next year works for me.

If Casey gets hurt or struggles, Shelton will and should get another shot. Meanwhile, Big Red isn't blocked by a long term contract if he can turn his career around.

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 01:54 PM

I guess the question now becomes...what exactly is Lynn Henning going to do since Bonderman is not getting traded and Aubrey Huff is not coming to Detroit?

keglerv

11-16-2006, 01:57 PM

keglerv (and any other link posters) have now become some of my least favorite people on this board....

Well, hopefully they get have 2006 World Series Casey and not 2006 Regular Season Casey.

I was disheartened to be the first to post this news. I really hope they go out and find some other lefthanded bench for the bench like Cat who can be the super sub and be there as an insurance policy if Casey stinks up the joint.

zachcadillac

11-16-2006, 01:57 PM

zachcadillac

11-16-2006, 01:59 PM

Now, does this mean the Tigers and Casey had to agree to a salary figure no less than 80 percent of his last year's wage? Or does that rule apply only to cases that proceed to arbitration?

keglerv

11-16-2006, 02:00 PM

I guess the question now becomes...what exactly is Lynn Henning going to do since Bonderman is not getting traded and Aubrey Huff is not coming to Detroit?

Maybe he will switch to Craig Monroe rumors? Best guess is he will obsess about needing a catcher to replace Pudge after the 2007 season.

Edman85

11-16-2006, 02:01 PM

A one year deal I don't mind. I'd rather have a crappy firstbaseman for one year than a mediocre one for 5. Maybe Shelton re-establishes himself or Larish proves himself worthy. If that's the case, they can emerge and Casey can slide over to the side.

estrepe1

11-16-2006, 02:01 PM

As I posted in another thread I do think that it buys the organization another year to determine if Jeff Larish will be the long term answer at first. I know some don't think he is even a good prospect. But he has good potential.

estrepe1

11-16-2006, 02:02 PM

Now, does this mean the Tigers and Casey had to agree to a salary figure no less than 80 percent of his last year's wage? Or does that rule apply only to cases that proceed to arbitration?

That only applies with arbitration. Casey is likely making less than 80% of last years salary.

A one year deal I don't mind. I'd rather have a crappy firstbaseman for one year than a mediocre one for 5. Maybe Shelton re-establishes himself or Larish proves himself worthy. If that's the case, they can emerge and Casey can slide over to the side.

As much as I dislike Casey's production, this is what I am thinking as well.

Tigercub33

11-16-2006, 02:03 PM

Maybe he will switch to Craig Monroe rumors? Best guess is he will obsess about needing a catcher to replace Pudge after the 2007 season.

Ahh yes, I forgot how he had it in for Pudge.

So what average LFer is Henning going to elevate to diety status in his columns?

Big Toe

11-16-2006, 02:13 PM

I've sort of rethought Larish a bit. Looking a little deeper into his stats it looks like he had a terrible BA on balls in play. I suspect he had a little bad luck in the batting average department and obviously the power and patience are good. I'm anxious to see what he does in Erie. He and Shelton might actually make nice complements for one another down the road. (Or one could grab hold of the job and not let go, which'd obviously be great too.)

chasfh

11-16-2006, 06:40 PM

You have mentioned this a lot. What would be your plan? Would you have pitchers throw fewer pitches per start or would you just let the innings pile up?
Do you think that pitchers can throw more than they have been typically throwing in modern times? My feeling is that some pitchers could handle the workload of a 4 man staff and some couldn't and this wouldn't be any different than the way it was in the 60s and 70s. I'm a little worried about young pitchers though. For example, Verlander got a tired arm in a 5 man rotation this year.

I think you can let innings "pile up" more than they do. Research has shown that the issue is not innings in a season as much as pitches per start.

I do agree that some pitchers could not handle the additional workload given them in a 4-man rotation -- that stands to reason. But I would bet it is a lot fewer than you might think. Verlander has never pitched those kind of innings before, and that might have something to do with why he got tired this year. I bet he comes up more resilient to usage simply with maturity in 2007.

A 4-1/2 man rotation would be equally acceptable. Under this strategy, you would have a 5-man rotation during those stretches in which the team plays 15 or 20 games in a row, but when the team has a day off or a rainout, you skip the fifth starter. So, instead of a theoretical 33-33-32-32-32 start distribution during the season, it might look more like 35-35-35-35-22. That's not that many more innings per arm (perhaps 20 in a year), and you end up concentrating more innings among your better starters.

84 Lives!!!

11-16-2006, 07:12 PM

... A 4-1/2 man rotation would be equally acceptable... ...it might look more like 35-35-35-35-22. That's not that many more innings per arm (perhaps 20 in a year), and you end up concentrating more innings among your better starters.

I think this would work perfect with a "spot-starter" type like Ledezma, Miner, or Tata. They could be long relief, or spot-starter, depending on the schedule...

The only wrench in this theory might be that Verlander might struggle in his second year if he hasn't gained back 100% of his rotator cuff strength...

I'm guessing... but I think he has an "average" 2007, and a "breakout" 2008. As long as he's healthy in '07, I'll be happy. I don't care about the ERA or wins/losses record... IE: He goes 14-15 with a 4.35 ERA, and is healthy at the end of the season... I'll be tickled pink.

If he has shoulder tiredness early on though... it'll make your 4 1/2 starters a bit of a problem...