Miller possibly on WS roster?

[tigersfandm]

http://www.mlive.com/tigers/weblog/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_tigers/archives/2006_10.html#196088

Miller back in town, could be added to WS roster
DETROIT -- Rookie left-hander Andrew Miller, the Tigers' first-round draft pick this year, was back at Comerica Park Wednesday, and there's some chance he could be on the World Series roster.

``It is an option, depending on who we play,'' manager Jim Leyland said.

The New York Mets have been particularly bad against left-handers. Their .254 batting average against lefties was second-worst in baseball, ahead of only the Chicago Cubs. So far in the postseason, the Mets have hit .209 against lefties.

Miller had trouble throwing strikes when he was with the Tigers in September, but he has been in the instructional league working with minor-league pitching coordinator Jon Matlack.

No other real news today. Casey is progressing, but still not definite for Game 1. Zumaya is fine. The Tigers let him go home to San Diego to see his family, but he was back in time for today's workout.

The Tigers were able to go on the field today, and Leyland promised an intensive, spring training like workout.

[Flame 103]

http://freep.typepad.com/tigers_live/

[estrepe1]

Other than an injury this is the only other way that Neifi Perez would be off of the playoff roster. Unless they are going to replace one of the current pitchers for him...

It would be an interesting choice. I am not sure I want him on the WS roster, but we will see what happens.

[Flame 103]

Well es, leftys kill the mets and the cards. that could be why. If he replaces a pitcher it will be Zach Miner imo. Look it's not as Miner has got into a game this post season anyway. I would take a Lefty Miller ahead of a Righty Miner.

[LeFlorean]

Or an any-which-way Grilli (up to and including the possibility of placing a temporary rubber 30' from home plate).

[Corky]

Other than an injury this is the only other way that Neifi Perez would be off of the playoff roster. Unless they are going to replace one of the current pitchers for him...

It would be an interesting choice. I am not sure I want him on the WS roster, but we will see what happens.

Last Saturday I posed this idea and was greeted with a chorus of we don't want him anywhere near the WS around here. I could see using him for a lefty or two, and, as I pointed out, nobody has seen him so his funky delivery may be of use. Can't do much worse than Grilli did and Miner is a wasted spot right now. I continue to believe that he can be a useful part (albeit a small one) in the WS.

[Yoda]

It would be an interesting choice. I am not sure I want him on the WS roster, but we will see what happens.

As raw as he is, he can still be very good if he's throwing strikes. His control was probably just mental or mechanical. If it was mechanical then they could have fixed it here in Lakeland. And if that's the case then he could be a pretty useful pitcher. I wouldn't expect him to get more than 2 or 3 innings over the entire series though.

[pyrotigers]

<vader> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO </vader>

I can't imagine it being anything other than a repeat of Grilli's most recent outing.

Of course, I don't want Miner pitching in the playoffs either, so if he does replace him I guess it is no big deal.

[FloridaTigers]

Yuck. Keep him at home and in the minors next year

[Yoda]

I can't imagine it being anything other than a repeat of Grilli's most recent outing.

You can't imagine anything other than the worst-case scenario?

[pyrotigers]

You can't imagine anything other than the worst-case scenario?

Considering he was wild in nearly every outing in his pro career, and would now be asked to step into a world series scenario full of pressure, no, I can't imagine him doing much better than walking a bunch of guys.

[tigersfandm]

If he makes it, how many gagillion times will we hear how he is the first player to be in the college world series and MLB world series in the same year?

[Shaggy Ry]

If it was mental, than pitching in the World freakin' Series is certainly not going to help things. Who would be our long reliever if he replaced a pitcher(Grilli or Miner)? I could live with the Neifi replacement, as we'd still have Santiago as the defensive replacement, and Infante to pinch hit(along with Gomez).

It would depend on how he looked - if he wildness was mechanical and fixed, though I'd lean to keeping the roster as is.

[Tigercub33]

I think it would be beneficial to have Miller over Miner. The Tigers have had almost a week to rest their arms, and a 3rd LH could come in handy (especially one that throws that hard an doesn't have nearly the scouting report the other players do).

[tigersfandm]

here is some info from Knobler about the chances of Perez getting dropped from the roster for the WS.

http://www.mlive.com/tigers/weblog/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_tigers/archives/2006_10.html#195791

Answering the Shelton/Perez question once and for all
DETROIT -- It's been misreported elsewhere, so here's the answer for all of you who want the Tigers to drop Neifi Perez from the World Series roster and replace him with Chris Shelton.

It can't happen. No way, no how, not unless Neifi Perez is injured (which he's not).

Here's why: The Tigers had 13 position players on the roster as of Aug. 31, the cutoff for postseason eligibility. Shelton was not one of them. Neither was Ramon Santiago. They also had two position players on the major-league DL (Placido Polanco and Tony Giarratano) at that time.

Thus, the Tigers had 15 eligible position players. One of those 15 was Dmitri Young, who was later released. That leaves you with 14:

Rodriguez, Wilson, Casey, Polanco, Guillen, Inge, Perez, Infante, Monroe, Granderson, Ordonez, Thames, Gomez, Giarratano.

They can replace Giarratano, because he's hurt, and they did so by putting Ramon Santiago on the roster. Theoretically, they could have Shelton take Santiago's spot in the World Series, but they don't plan to do so. The only other way to put Shelton on the roster would be to have him replace an injured player. He could replace Casey, but that's hugely unlikely unless Casey suffers a major setback. He can not replace Perez, unless Perez is hurt (which he's not).

[Yoda]

Well, let's take a look at what he did.

8-30
1 IP, 0H, 0 ER, 0BB, 0K

9-05
2.0 IP, 1H, 1ER, 1BB, 2K

9-08
0.2 IP, 0H, 1ER, 3BB, 0K

9-13
1.0 IP, 0H, 0ER, 1BB, 0K

9-19
1.2 IP, 1H, 0ER, 1BB, 0K

9-24
1.0 IP, 2H, 1ER, 0BB, 2K

9-26
0.1 IP, 0H, 1ER, 1BB, 0K

3-30
2.2 IP, 4H, 3ER, 3BB, 2K

Miller had 1 outing that was really bad, 3 good outings (0 ER), 1 ok outing (1ER in 2IP), and 3 not so good outings. While not very consistent, he was good at times, so the ability is there. I don't think they'd put him on the roster, and actually use him, if they didn't think he wouldn't be more dependable than he was before. Like I said, he does have the ability.

[estrepe1]

As raw as he is, he can still be very good if he's throwing strikes. His control was probably just mental or mechanical. If it was mechanical then they could have fixed it here in Lakeland. And if that's the case then he could be a pretty useful pitcher. I wouldn't expect him to get more than 2 or 3 innings over the entire series though.

I would trust that the Tigers will know what to do. I don't know that he is really ready to be in the majors during the WS but if they want him there thats fine.

His stuff is amazing and if he can get it over for strikes he can get lefties out right now.

He will need a lot of work before he is ready to start in the majors though.

[DrWho17]

Other than an injury this is the only other way that Neifi Perez would be off of the playoff roster. Unless they are going to replace one of the current pitchers for him...

It would be an interesting choice. I am not sure I want him on the WS roster, but we will see what happens.
No it wouldn't Grilli should be off. He doesn't belong.

[estrepe1]

No it wouldn't Grilli should be off. He doesn't belong.

Grilli is someone I would think about pulling off too. If its a pitcher I think Miner would likely be the one that would come off for Miller though.

[hueytaxi]

So who was the 6'6" long haired young blond guy sitting with Whelan, Mahoney and Sleeth today in Lakeland? Yes he disappeared in the first couple of innings not to be seen again. Is he in Detroit? I wouldn't doubt it as one of Lakeland's staff was called off a project for something important....trip to the airport?

[apabruce]

Last Saturday I posed this idea and was greeted with a chorus of we don't want him anywhere near the WS around here.

You don't get no respect.

Using Miller would be a gamble, but he has the same amount of World Series experience as most of the Tigers.

I would also think if he replaces anybody, it would be Miner. Grilli had a three walk to load the bases experience, just as Miller did in the regular season. However, Grilli also got Frank Thomas out, twice I believe, so he's not a complete basket case.

[pyrotigers]

Well, let's take a look at what he did.

8-30
1 IP, 0H, 0 ER, 0BB, 0K

9-05
2.0 IP, 1H, 1ER, 1BB, 2K

9-08
0.2 IP, 0H, 1ER, 3BB, 0K

9-13
1.0 IP, 0H, 0ER, 1BB, 0K

9-19
1.2 IP, 1H, 0ER, 1BB, 0K

9-24
1.0 IP, 2H, 1ER, 0BB, 2K

9-26
0.1 IP, 0H, 1ER, 1BB, 0K

3-30
2.2 IP, 4H, 3ER, 3BB, 2K



He walked at least one guy in 6 out of his 8 appearances...in the playoffs that terrifies me.

[estrepe1]

So who was the 6'6" long haired young blond guy sitting with Whelan, Mahoney and Sleeth today in Lakeland? Yes he disappeared in the first couple of innings not to be seen again. Is he in Detroit? I wouldn't doubt it as one of Lakeland's staff was called off a project for something important....trip to the airport?

Yes he is in Detroit he showed up today and was in the locker room if the above blog article is correct.

[cruzer1]

The World Series is won with talent, and this kid is obviously loaded. He has more talent than all but a few pitchers the Tigers have.

[Johnny Mac]

i honestly like it

[tigersfandm]

If he can get his pitches over for strikes, then he could be the "pull a koufax out of your pocket" type that leyland said in the earlier series. Not comparing Miller to Koufax at all because that would be rediculous, but if he gets his pitches over for strikes, he could be a dominant type pitcher from the pen and that is partly what leyland was talking about when he said that comment about pulling a koufax out of your pocket. Course 'if' statements don't guarantee anything and usually get you in trouble. I trust whatever Leyland does.

[One Man's Fool]

Grilli is a very decent pitcher who had two horrible outings this year, one of them in a very high-profile game. (The other one in the series in Toronto.)

He had 25 walks in 62 innings this year - a little high, but nothing all that alarming. He had a very presentable 4.21 ERA. His WHIP was 1.39. Horrible, you say? Verlander's was 1.33.

Grilli was on the 25-man roster the entire year. Leyland is not going to knee-jerk and pull him off the World Series roster because of one bad performance, nor should he.

[Yoda]

He walked at least one guy in 6 out of his 8 appearances...in the playoffs that terrifies me.

Walks are no worse than hits. His WHIP wasn't that bad because he rarely gave up a hit. Until his last outing of course.

[DrWho17]

Grilli is a very decent pitcher who had two horrible outings this year, one of them in a very high-profile game. (The other one in the series in Toronto.)

He had 25 walks in 62 innings this year - a little high, but nothing all that alarming. He had a very presentable 4.21 ERA. His WHIP was 1.39. Horrible, you say? Verlander's was 1.33.

Grilli was on the 25-man roster the entire year. Leyland is not going to knee-jerk and pull him off the World Series roster because of one bad performance, nor should he.
Grilli is the worst pitcher on the staff. Grilli is right handed. The Mets have trouble with left handers. Miller is left handed. Grilli should be left off.

[dt35456884]

I honestly wanted Miller on the postseason roster the whole time. He's by no means a guy you can absolutely depend on, but surely he's more useful than Miner.

[Corky]

You don't get no respect.

Using Miller would be a gamble, but he has the same amount of World Series experience as most of the Tigers.

I would also think if he replaces anybody, it would be Miner. Grilli had a three walk to load the bases experience, just as Miller did in the regular season. However, Grilli also got Frank Thomas out, twice I believe, so he's not a complete basket case.

Didn't everybody we have get Frank Thomas out?

:silly: :wink:

[Domino]

This would be a horrible move. It's a fact that the strike zone in the MLB is smaller then college... just like the zone is smaller in college as it is in high school. It is NOT a mental issue, it's plain and simply that he needs a full year in the minors to adjust to a smaller strike zone and get the control he's going to need to make it in the majors. It's a whole new ballgame up in the MLB.

He has 10 walks in the few outings he's had. That's a ton. Further, a LOT of the outs he got were hitters swinging at bad pitches. Rest assured it won't be a secret anymore in the world series that he can't throw strikes, and he'll continue to walk people because hitters are more selective. Don't rush this and give the kid a whole year in the minors there is no reason to bring him up now.

Grilli I think just had a bad outing combined with bad luck. Early on he had 3 pitches that should have been called strikes, and they weren't and this obviously flustered him and he kept throwing balls. I say leave the pitching staff as is.

[Yoda]

Further, a LOT of the outs he got were hitters swinging at bad pitches.

Why is this a bad thing? And how is it any different to the way Kenny Rogers pitches? Should we take him off the roster because sure he gets a lot of outs, but they're outs because the batter swung at a bad pitch.

It's calling "fooling" the batter. Something he's very good at. And you just paid him a nice compliment.

[Corky]

Indeed Yoda. A good pitcher beats guys out of the strikezone. A thrower beats them in the strikezone.

[Domino]

Couldn't disagree more with you on this Yoda, but what else is new. You can see it in the way he pitches. He's not making those pitches strategically and planned out like a good pitcher does... when he does get someone out by swinging at a bad pitch it's pure luck and totally not where Pudge or Vance wants the ball.... aka... totally wild and lucky. That's going to run out.

Please do not compare Kenny Rogers to Andrew Miller. Kenny strategically places every single pitch by hitting every single spot he needs to over a dime and in perfect sequence. Further, Kenny doesn't walk people. Maybe someday Andrew can be mentioned in the same sentence, but he's nowhere near that today.

[Yoda]

Couldn't disagree more with you on this Yoda, but what else is new. You can see it in the way he pitches. He's not making those pitches strategically and planned out like a good pitcher does... when he does get someone out by swinging at a bad pitch it's pure luck and totally not where Pudge or Vance wants the ball.... aka... totally wild and lucky. That's going to run out.

Please do not compare Kenny Rogers to Andrew Miller. Kenny strategically places every single pitch by hitting every single spot he needs to over a dime and in perfect sequence. Further, Kenny doesn't walk people. Maybe someday Andrew can be mentioned in the same sentence, but he's nowhere near that today.

I didn't say he was as good as Kenny Rogers. I could compare him to any pitcher in history if he has something common with them. it doesn't mean that he's as good as them.

I just said that they both get outs by people swinging at bad pitches. Though that's not entirely true. I don't have all of Miller's games TIVO'ed but he got plenty of outs on pitches that were well-located.

I'm not going to disagree that he was wild. You're right. He was very wild at times. But he was very good at times too.

And like I said, it may have just been something mechanical. Maybe they've fixed it? Remember when Zumaya got wild in the middle of the season? They sat him for a few days and worked on his mechanics. He came back and was awesome.

I'm all for not using Miller if he still has control problems. But I would imagine they feel he's got his location back under control or they wouldn't likely consider this. I don't really think it's a big deal and likely won't have a bit of an impact on the series.

[Domino]

I'm not going to disagree that he was wild. You're right. He was very wild at times. But he was very good at times too.

I can't remember him being "very good" since I saw him in the college world series with a huge strike zone by the umpire. I think he got very lucky in New York.

I think he has potential to be great some day, but he needs at least a full year in the minors first and we shouldn't be even toying around with him in the postseason this year. That's my opinion.

[Corky]

Back in March no one could have predicted that there would be a discussion as to whether to use a rookie pitcher as the 5th guy in the bullpen for the World Series this year come October.

Kinda cool.

[Yoda]

I can't remember him being "very good" since I saw him in the college world series with a huge strike zone by the umpire. I think he got very lucky in New York.

I think he has potential to be great some day, but he needs at least a full year in the minors first and we shouldn't be even toying around with him in the postseason this year. That's my opinion.

See post #16. He had several outings this year that were good.

He probably does need a full year in the minors, and I think he'll get that. Unless he's just killing people like V&Z did in '05. And even then it would probably take a couple injuries to bring him up. We'll see though.

[LeFlorean]

Our neighborhood paperboy looks older than Miller.

Granted, Miller has at least three feet on him... but still...

[Deadshot]

You guys are all acting as if Miller is going to pitch 5+ innings in this series. Like someone mentioned earlier, if he is indeed added and plays, he should only see 2-3 innings at the most.

He did have some problems with walking batters, but he was consistent in the majority of his performances (that didn't always mean striking batters out, but he got the job done). It would be nice to have another lefty in the pen.

As for someone mentioning pressure earlier, I think he can handle a little pressure. He pitched in the college WS this season AND made his debut at Yankee stadium facing batters such as Damon and Jeter. While these pressures do not perfectly resemble that of a MLB WS, they are major pressures nonetheless.

[slim pickens]

I really dont see a drastic need to rush this kid here next year. Then in August when he is tired, he will start missing starts, and we will start having to fill the spot. I say give him a few spot starts next year, like they did Verlander last year, and go from there. Have him be Verlander '08.

[hueytaxi]

Let's see...yesterday if I remember....yes it's A ball....2 innings, 7 batters faced, 4 K's, 1 hit, 0 runs

[keystone]

I'll bet Leyland just wants to give him a good seat for the series. That way he'll be hungry to earn a seat next year.

[apabruce]

Didn't everybody we have get Frank Thomas out?

Not Miner.

[ypsieast]

Here's why I think Miller is being (and should be) considered.

The Mets have a lot of tough lefties in their lineup: Reyes, Delgado, Green. Beltran is a switch hitter, but without looking, I would guess more effective from the left.

Without the DH (road games) a situation could arise where Walker is needed to get the 3rd out in a close game with men on base and one of those guys up to bat. This could happen as early as the 4th or 5th inning. If the number 9 spot is up to bat 2nd in the next half inning for the Tigers, what do you do?
a) double switch
b) pinch hit for Walker - he's out after facing just one batter
C) let Walker bat

Letting Walker bat isn't a good option.
Now, does JL really want to do a double switch? Who do you take out of the game? Its still real early in the game to take out one of our starters, much less a bat near the top of the order.
But if you just pinch hit for Walker, he can't go on to pitch another inning. It's only the 5th inning? What if another situation arises later where JL needs a lefty specialist? Against STL, this is unlikely to happen. There's no lefty he'd be afraid to face with Rodney. But against NYM, that could be Reyes, Delgado, Green or even Beltran. If Ledezma has worked hard the 1 or 2 games before, he may not be available. It would be nice for JL to have Miller for 1 batter, if needed.

I know this is a very specific circumstance, but it is feasible. One batter can make a big difference in chasing down a championship. Against the Mets I could certainly see the value in an extra lefty pitcher. Can you think of a more likely scenario that would require Miner be used?

[witz57]

the spirit of my post is very similar to what ypsi previously posted. having given credit where it's due here's how i'd break it down:

what spot would miller be taking?

the last pitching spot on the roster. essentialy putting him on the roster means replacing the roster pitcher considered least effective by the organization.
-----
he's very young. he's on the roster, i'm concerned he won't be able to hold a major league team off for an inning or two.

the tigers are one of the most rested world series teams in recent history and assuming zumaya is ok to go (please be ok to go) they're injury free. on top of this they've got the most effective realiable starting rotation in the majors and probably the same goes for their bullpen. their last roster choice for pitcher should never "have" to be used to eat innings
-----
well what kind of situation would that person be used in?

probably to get a single batter out. particularly if he were a big scary left handed hitter.
-----
who has the best overall stuff for getting said scary left handed hitter out? Miller or Miner/Grilli

Miller by a landslide
-----
but baseball's not all about stuff what about if things go wrong for miller? what if they go wrong for grilli/miner

well Miller's exhibited control problems he could possibly walk the lefty. It's very unlikely however he gives up a home run as he's a ground ball pitcher who rarely gives them up. also if he's "off" it's with his control, it's not with how effective his pitches are. if miller's having a bad night we see it immediatly when he walks the guy. then we curse him for digging us deeper in a hole. if he's having a good night, there's a decent chance he k's the batter or induces a ground ball

grilli/miner however are probably less likely to walk the batter and more likely to serve up a double or home run.

-----
conclusion:

in the end, i'm taking miller for the very specific situation of him having to pitch to ONE lefthanded batter. i think this is the most likely situation he'll be in and i think if he screws it up he'll most likely just walk the guy. meanwhile the alternative is taking someone else you're way less sure can simply outright *beat* the batter in a single at bat. and in the situation of thinking the batter might beat you, you have to consider walking the batter anyway.

if i were taking a team north in april it would be a completly different thought process with a completly different list of needs and most likely miller would be staying behind.

[djhutch]

Grilli has been on the major league roster the entire year. I don't see Leyland taking him off now. If he decides he needs Miller, Miner will be the one to go.

[keystone]

Whatever Leyland decides is fine by me. I won't second guess him. The guy's been rolling sevens at the crap table all year. When your hot - your HOT!

[LeFlorean]

Leyland seems to have a Neifi-like affinity for Grilli, which I can sort of understand. After Grilli's reaction to Thomas' double play, I thought "Uh-oh, that's great but please please remain calm..." And we all know what happened next.

I cringe at the thought of Grilli in any WS situation. Not just because of his livewire nerves, but also because he seems to have the absolute worst of luck with plate umpires.

Part of me thinks he should maybe look into taking a yoga class in the off-season.

[Tigercub33]

I cringe at the thought of Grilli in any WS situation. Not just because of his livewire nerves, but also because he seems to have the absolute worst of luck with plate umpires.

I agree with you. During his marathon of balls, several of them looked to be at least borderline strikes, strikes that would have been called if one of our SPs was on the mound.

[estrepe1]

Part of me thinks he should maybe look into taking a yoga class in the off-season.

I don't think we will have to worry about Grilli's offseason I have a feeling they will replace him with someone like Tata.

[estrepe1]

if i were taking a team north in april it would be a completly different thought process with a completly different list of needs and most likely miller would be staying behind.

Since Miller will be a starter long term I don't see them bringing him north to be in the bullpen in April.

[Tigercub33]

I don't think we will have to worry about Grilli's offseason I have a feeling they will replace him with someone like Tata.

That is an interesting thought (one that had not even occured to me). I felt Grilli was one of Leyland's "boys" and thus was almost automatically on the 2007 roster.

I also think that Tata has vastly more trade value and therefore probably WON'T be with the organization in 2007.

[estrepe1]

That is an interesting thought (one that had not even occured to me). I felt Grilli was one of Leyland's "boys" and thus was almost automatically on the 2007 roster.

I also think that Tata has vastly more trade value and therefore probably WON'T be with the organization in 2007.


Just because someone is one of Leyland's "boys" doesn't mean they will be on the roster long term or even on the roster in 2007.

I am not sure that Tata has a ton of trade value. More than Grilli but beyond that I am not sure.

[Tigercub33]

Just because someone is one of Leyland's "boys" doesn't mean they will be on the roster long term or even on the roster in 2007.

I am not sure that Tata has a ton of trade value. More than Grilli but beyond that I am not sure.

I guess I was not trying to imply that Tata had a ton of value, just that his trade value was quite a bit higher than Grilli's.

[thewave84]

Why are so many people assuming that Grilli would be the one replaced? I would keep Grilli over Miner. Leyland has used Grilli in more important situations. Is it just because of Grilli's last appearance?

[estrepe1]

Why are so many people assuming that Grilli would be the one replaced? I would keep Grilli over Miner. Leyland has used Grilli in more important situations. Is it just because of Grilli's last appearance?

I think if Miller is on the roster for the WS it will be to replace Miner.

Grilli I think will be replaced next season. Just a hunch nothing more and nothing less. He is okay for what he does but I think they will want to use that spot for someone with more potential.

[Johnny Mac]

I like Millers upside as a lefty pitcher in our organization. that being said, i wouldnt want him in there for an extended period of time now

i would put him on the roster though, i think he could come in as a lefty specialist and get the job done for a batter or two or maybe even three, but no more

[baseball3]

Whether they put Miller on the WS roster or not, these posters and readers will ALWAYS and forever be discussing his control (or lack of it). I used to watch him in HS and in order for the team to win a game, they had to always take him out before the 4th inning due to the number of baserunners allowed due to walks. At NC, his control improved dramatically, but, as we see today, it's still very suspect and he's in essence a raw talent. I've seen him pitch for 5 years and I don't understand why he continues to be wild. He seems tough mentally, his mechanics appear basically sound, but, his control is still an issue. I think it always will and those of us who recognize his extreme talent will just have to accept his lack of control as a part of what we have with him.

If he can make the strides over the next 3 years as he has in the last 3, then, we'll be able to discuss his talent without barraging one another about his control. If not, it will always be a problem. But, on the other hand, let's give the kid a break, he's really only 21 years old and hasn't been overpitched in his younger years. He'll be fine in the long run, we just can't expect Maddux like control at this point in his baseball life.

[Shaggy Ry]

We shoulda took Clayton Kershaw...

[Johnny Mac]

Whether they put Miller on the WS roster or not, these posters and readers will ALWAYS and forever be discussing his control (or lack of it). I used to watch him in HS and in order for the team to win a game, they had to always take him out before the 4th inning due to the number of baserunners allowed due to walks. At NC, his control improved dramatically, but, as we see today, it's still very suspect and he's in essence a raw talent. I've seen him pitch for 5 years and I don't understand why he continues to be wild. He seems tough mentally, his mechanics appear basically sound, but, his control is still an issue. I think it always will and those of us who recognize his extreme talent will just have to accept his lack of control as a part of what we have with him.

If he can make the strides over the next 3 years as he has in the last 3, then, we'll be able to discuss his talent without barraging one another about his control. If not, it will always be a problem. But, on the other hand, let's give the kid a break, he's really only 21 years old and hasn't been overpitched in his younger years. He'll be fine in the long run, we just can't expect Maddux like control at this point in his baseball life.

if i remember correctly, Nolan Ryan was very wild at the beginning of his career. not that im comparing miller to Nolan Ryan :wink:

[estrepe1]

We shoulda took Clayton Kershaw...

Sarcasm?

Kershaw's mechanics really worry me. He is all arm when he throws the ball. I think it would be fixable but what damage has already been done?

Verlander had all kinds of control problems in college as well. The Tigers found something in his delivery that fixed this. Its possible they see something really small in Miller's delievery that can fix it as well.

[baseball3]

Miller will be fine, but, it will take a while.

P A T I E N C E is of major importance here, the kid oozes with talent of speed and a masterful slider ..........................wait, watch and enjoy, the greatest of which is wait!!

[84 Lives!!!]

if i remember correctly, Nolan Ryan was very wild at the beginning of his career. not that im comparing miller to Nolan Ryan :wink:

Sandy Koufax would be the more appropriate comparable (lefty-lefty :grin:).

It took Koufax several years to get his control down-pat... and then he just simply dominated... Randy Johnson too, if I'm not mistaken... same story.

[Yoda]

if i remember correctly, Nolan Ryan was very wild at the beginning of his career. not that im comparing miller to Nolan Ryan :wink:

Remember how wild Randy Johnson was?

[84 Lives!!!]

Remember how wild Randy Johnson was?

6 walks per 9 innings until he turned 30... then a HUGE improvement in control...

[84 Lives!!!]

PS: I like the Koufax comparison better though:

5.3 K's per 9 through age 24, then he started to dominate.

I'd love to see a Koufax-level of domination. An earlier start on that too, by 6 years, over Randy... :wink:

[estrepe1]

Randy Johnson and Sandy Koufax? He has great stuff but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

For once I agree with Baseball3.... just have patience with him guys. He is raw. I would be shocked if we saw Verlander type dominance from him in his first season. It might take a couple seasons and there is no guarantee.

[redshark63]

...and remember. Verlander had a "couple of tweaks" to his delivery done prior to his first full minor league season. I think we may see something similar done with Miller prior to ST.

[estrepe1]

...and remember. Verlander had a "couple of tweaks" to his delivery done prior to his first full minor league season. I think we may see something similar done with Miller prior to ST.

I think you will see something similar with Miller. I still think its going to take time for him to be ready to be an effective starting pitcher.

[TigerFan4ever]

I will agree with the "Anti-Grilli" posts above. He hasn't had a good post season at all. Plus he smiles way to flippin much. Sit him and bring on Miller!