View Full Version : Winterball info:
RedRamage
11-11-2002, 09:53 AM
We have some Tigers in the Winter Leagues of Puerto Rico. Amoung them are three in Carolina and one in Ponce.
Carolina currently has 4 and 5 record.
For what it's worth, Munson now has six games at Third with only one error. He's also doing okay with the bat: 8 hits in 22 At Bats with a .545 SLG and a .407 OBP.
Of course, offensively, team mate Rivera is doing even batter...er, I mean better. :D Rivera has 13 his in 31 ABs. He's already hit three homers and has a fantastic .806 SLG to go along with his .471 OBP.
Torres seems to be really struggling at the plate. While he's managed to grab 5 walks, he's only connected for a hit three times 16 ABs. His OBP is semi-respectable at .364, but his SLG is as pitiful as his AVG: both are .188.
Caroliona Stats (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/Stats/stats_PRL_car.shtml)
Over in Ponce, Bocachica has helped his team for a 5 and 5 record. He's sporting a .222 AVG and has dinger a couple of homers towards a .444 SLG. His OBP is .382. He's recorded 1 error while playing five games in the OF and 4 at second base.
Ponce Stats (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/Stats/stats_PRL_pon.shtml)
Apparently Bruce Fields is managing the team located in Escogido. However, I was unsuccessful in locating the stats page for that team. Anyone know what it is?
RedRamage
11-11-2002, 03:08 PM
Yes, yes, I know. I'm reply to my own post. Well, I found the link to the team that Fields is supposed to be managing. The problem was that it was a dominican winter league team, not a Puerto Rican League team. Anyway, here's the link:
Escogido stats (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/Stats/stats_DWL_esc.shtml)
MotownRandy
11-11-2002, 03:11 PM
Thanks for the info Red. Sounds like the Tigers are doing pretty well. We need Torrez to get more hits, but at least he is still walking. If he doesnt get on base consistently enough, he may be relegated to the 9 spot instead of leadoff.
OldTimey
11-11-2002, 03:18 PM
Or a fourth outfielder. I think a poor OBP for any hitter should mean no regular playing time.
RedRamage
11-11-2002, 03:20 PM
Okay... according to this (http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/det/news/det_news.jsp?ymd=20021105&content_id=170684&vkey=news_det&fext=.jsp) article on Detroittigers.com, Fields is managing the team at Escogido. However, the article indicates that his team is loaded with Tigers, and mentioned Lombard, Bernero and others as if they are all on his team.
However, According to Baseball America Online, all the players mentioned are on the team in Cibao. I dunno who has it right, but I'm guessing that BAO does and the Tigers site is wrong. Either way, I'm assuming that the stats are correct. Here's the page:
Cibao Stats (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/Stats/stats_DWL_cib.shtml)
Ot, it would be ideal if we could field a team like that but realistically no team has all good hitters. So maybe an outfielder who has run a sub 6.0 60 and has been voted best outfielder in two different minor leagues could take a spot in the 9 hole. I know it's not up to your standards but we have to put 9 players out there. If we put all of our good OBP's out there I don't think Higginson has the range to cover the ENTIRE field.
MotownRandy
11-15-2002, 01:06 PM
Oldy, you could be right about Torrez being a 4th outfielder, but we will never know unless he has his chance at the major league level. They should start him out of spring training(unless he looks horrible) and let him continue throughout the season. I dont think he is going to be as bad as many think. Giving up on him would be a big mistake.
RedRamage
11-16-2002, 12:14 PM
On the Good News front, Munson's improved his average up to .353. His SLG has risen to .588.
On the Bad News front, his OBP has dipped...only slightly though to just .385.
On the Worse News front, he now has 3 errors through 9 games.
(These stats as of 11/15/02)
cedar
11-16-2002, 12:25 PM
I would disagree that Torres obp of .364 is only semi-respectable. Considering his obp is almost 200 points higher than his batting avg, that is phenomenal. It wouldn't take much of an improvement in his batting avg to make his obp leadoff material, and as it stands now would be better than anyone we had last year by 20 points.
RedRamage
11-16-2002, 01:13 PM
Unforutnately, since I posted those original stats, things have changed. Torres AVG has dropped to .150, his OBP has dropped to .296.
Cult of Guillen
11-16-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by RedRamage
On the Good News front, Munson's improved his average up to .353. His SLG has risen to .588.
On the Bad News front, his OBP has dipped...only slightly though to just .385.
On the Worse News front, he now has 3 errors through 9 games.
(These stats as of 11/15/02)
The only stat that matters are defensive numbers for players in the winter leagues. Disregard any hitting or pitching numbers, they don't matter. The level of competition is poor and it's mostly intended for guys to keep their eyes/arms sharp during the offseason, or learn a new position, as Munson is doing.
Remember, Jeff Farnsworth dominated his league last winter.
Farnsworth had a tough role. He'd pitch an inning or two every week or so. If he had a bad outing (which is easy to do when you never pitch), his ERA would inflate. He ended up with a 5.45 ERA. If you take out 3 bad outings he had, Farnsworth had a sub 4 era. I think Farnsworth has a good arm and knows how to pitch. I'm glad we kept him on the roster all year. He could be good.
Bocachica has 3 HR's and 9 walks and has split his time between the outfield and 2nd base. Those links are continually updated which is nice.
OldTimey
11-16-2002, 10:30 PM
"So maybe an outfielder who has run a sub 6.0 60 and has been voted best outfielder in two different minor leagues could take a spot in the 9 hole."
The 6.0 60 doesn't have anything to do with it if he can't get on base. Speed is a nice thing to have. But if you're you've got a bad OBP it's only good for pinch running.
And while I understand that you're not going to have an All-Star at every position, it doesn't mean you just settle for that, throw up your hands, and declare "who cares if he's a bad hitter. We need nine guys!"
berneree
11-17-2002, 12:13 AM
I believe Qsilver proved that Torres is able to reach base throughout his minor league career. The post by Qsilver is back in the days when we argued mercilessly about Juan Pierre being better than Torres.
OT, the jury is not out on Torres yet. He can reach base, which will make his speed valuable.
Torres
age level OBP
20 A .323
21 A .385
22 A .399
23 AA .391
24 AAA .345
Pierre
age level OBP
21 A .399
22 A .386
23 AA .376
ML .353 (Coor's inflated)
24 ML .378 (Coor's Inflated)
25 ML .326 (Coor's "Inflated")
age level OBP
[url]http://www.motowntigers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3261&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
We've seen our share of guys like Halter, Paquette, Lombard, Encarnacion, Cruz, Cedeno etc. who have such defensive shortcomings that it makes them worthless. From what I hear about Kingsale is that he is not only good defensively but he's a smart baseball player. We haven't had many of those.
If you think back to the 1984 Tigers, we didn't have all stars but we had solid all around players. Maybe that's what Trammell sees in Kingsale. The jury is still out on Torres but it seems as though he wants to do things to augment his speed and be a competitive player instead of just one of those above mentioned dogs.
Lance Parrish had a .287 OBP and a .730 OPS in 1984. Here are the 1984 Tigers position players and their OPS:
Parrish 730
Bergman 768
Whitaker 764
H. Johnson 718
Trammell 850
Lemon 852
Gibson 869
Herndon 733
Evans 837
Garbey 716
Brookens 703
R. Jones 860
J. Grubb 837
M. Castillo 668
R. Kuntz 807
D. Baker 426
On that team, we had a lot of players who had tremendous seasons off the bench and we had a solid core. None of those numbers are that great.
As a matter of fact, if today we're 1984, OT would be calling for Parrish, Herndon and Brookens head for the chopping block. The fact is they had a good team who could pick each other up.
cedar
11-17-2002, 08:35 AM
One thing though Jake, those numbers the 84 Tigers put up were probably good for that time period. I know they lead the league in many offensive categories and just blew people away. The big offensive explosion in the league didn't come for another several years, where those numbers the Tigs put up back then would look pretty avg. We did have a great bench then and three very good starting pitchers. It might be interesting to see what the avg ops per position was in 84 and what it is today, but I'd bet it has almost certainly gone up accross the board.
If there is one position on the team where I could suffer with a weaker hitter it would be catcher. Most catchers in the league don't hit well because of the demands of the position, so we are not at a big disadvantage having one there as well. But he has to do everything else well to earn his keep, and though I have been a big Inge backer for his defense, he did lapse in this area last year. If he can handle pitchers well and be the guy he was defensively before, then I think he makes a good contribution. But when I say he doesn't have to be a great hitter, he can't hit .180 either. That is just unacceptable no matter how good he is defensively. If he can hit league avg for a catcher or even 10 points below and be consistently good behind the plate, then he does help us.
Cedar, that's how I view it, too. While we're struggling so bad as a team what does it hurt to give a guy like that a few more years to develop??
Some winter league stats. (as of 11/21)
Bernero, Adam 2- 1 .667 3.26 6 19.1 ip 20 H 1 BB 16 K
German, Franklin 0- 0 .000 1.69 6 5.1 3 H 1 BB 7 K
Rodney, Fernando 1- 0 1.000 6.75 7 8.0 4 H 7 BB 8 K
BATTERS AVG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI HP BB SO SB CS SLG OBP
Bocachica .208 17 53 8 11 20 0 0 3 8 4 10 8 2 2 .377 .373
Lombard .298 25 94 8 28 36 6 1 0 6 0 3 24 4 0 .383 .320
Monroe .200 21 80 9 16 24 5 0 1 10 0 8 21 0 0 .300 .273
Munson .356 14 45 7 16 24 2 0 2 13 0 3 9 0 0 .533 .373
Torres .194 13 31 3 6 9 0 0 1 5 0 6 10 4 1 0 .290 .308
Bernero has 16 K to 1 BB. German continues to impress. Rodney still has no command. Bocachica has 10 BB and 4 HP and 3 HR in 53 AB. Lombard has 24 K to 3 BB. MOnroe is no help. Munson looks OK but his K: BB is poor. Torres still isn't hitting enough even though he's seeing a lot of pitches.
The 84 Tigers only had "solid all-around players"? I won't deny that there were some of those, but they had a lot more as well. Whitaker, Trammell, Evans, and Morris are all borderline Hall-of-Famers (although only Morris seems likely to get in). Willie Hernandez won the Cy Young Award AND the MVP that year (I think he was probably the last player to do that), and Kirk Gibson was a future MVP.
That's a tremendous amount of extremely high-level talent, without even going into the solid players like Parrish, Dan Petry, Chet Lemon, et al. Nobody on the Tigers' roster right now seems likely to ever win a Cy Young Award, an MVP, or have any sort of shot at the HOF. Adding some solid players (assuming that Kingsale even qualifies as such) is not going to accomplish anything - it's the five or six stars that are missing.
OldTimey
11-24-2002, 01:05 AM
Inge is more than just not a great hitter though. He's a complete disaster. And not really taht good of a defensive catcher.
The '84 Tigers led in a lot of offensive categories.
Bocachica seems to be playing well (415 ob%) and Torres has raised his ob% to .345.
berneree
12-12-2002, 11:41 AM
Has anybody been watching Munson lately?
RedRamage
12-12-2002, 12:41 PM
berneree,
There's another thread in this forum recounting a news bit on detroittigers.com. It basically said that Munson went through a bit of a defense and offensive slump, but has rebounded nicely for a week without errors and some nice offensive production.
Dan Gilmore
12-12-2002, 12:58 PM
The bad news is that other thread recently points out the errorless streak came with Munson playing First base not Third.
berneree
12-17-2002, 10:51 AM
Didn't we discuss this a week ago. It looks like the Munson project at 3B is essentially done. He now has played 16 games at 3B, (one in past 5 days) and 12 games at 1b (3 in past 5 days)
This has been continuing like this for 3 weeks now. Munson is not a prospect to play considerable time at 3B in Detroit next season. He may get up to 30 games there during the season, but I think best case scenario is the way Nevin was moved to 3b. Therefore, Chapman has the 3B position to lose.
cruzer1
12-17-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by OldTimey
Inge is more than just not a great hitter though. He's a complete disaster. And not really taht good of a defensive catcher.
The '84 Tigers led in a lot of offensive categories. You try to play with your shoulder popping out 10 times. I thought he showed alot of guts last year. Not alot of people could go through what he did.
estrepe1
12-17-2002, 11:31 AM
Inge is not that good of a hitter or a catcher i think he is overrated but it doesn't matter we are going to give him another shot to start.
I like Torres if he can start to show his patience at the big league level we might have something. I think he focused too much on power last season and not on what he is good at, which are singles and walks.
zachcadillac
12-17-2002, 12:15 PM
You try to play with your shoulder popping out 10 times. I thought he showed alot of guts last year. Not alot of people could go through what he did.
Having guts is great for digestive purposes, but it doesn't much help you hit a fastball. ;)
MotownRandy
12-17-2002, 02:05 PM
If Inge and Torrez can both do what we know they are capable of defensively then they should stick as starters. You can argue all you want about Inge's defensive performance being below par last season, but you know he should be better than that. He should be given the time to continue working on his offense, at least until someone better is acquired. Torrez has speed and the ability to take walks. If he can just put the ball on the ground and use his speed(and be a good baserunner as well) he can bat leadoff for the Tigers. He should never, I repeat NEVER, concentrate on power. That is not his game, especially not in Comerica Park. If either of these guys try to be power hitters, they will fail miserably. Play within your abilities and work your ***** off and good things will happen.
Edman85
12-17-2002, 08:28 PM
Hmmm, giving up on Munson at third and drafting Chapman, does that mean that Fick is as good as non-tendered with Young moving to the outfield?
estrepe1
12-17-2002, 08:47 PM
this is a big IF but if Chapman can provide decent obp at third i could see a lineup that had him splitting time with Munson at third. When Munson is not at third he should be the DH though. Young should go to the outfield and Fick will probably just be gone.
Munson deserves nothing. As a matter of fact, watching him play a few times in the minors I was totally unimpressed. He's one of those primadonna talents who thinks he deserves to play because of his draft status. I think he's horrible. He makes no adjustments at the plate and is an emotional basketcase. I don't see him being able to handle the big leagues.
The only reason he's getting a chance now is because he's out of options, had a decent two months of a 4 year minor league career, and we have a lot of money invested in him.
lionstigersand...
12-18-2002, 03:42 PM
interesting...
estrepe1
12-18-2002, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by jake
Munson deserves nothing. As a matter of fact, watching him play a few times in the minors I was totally unimpressed. He's one of those primadonna talents who thinks he deserves to play because of his draft status. I think he's horrible. He makes no adjustments at the plate and is an emotional basketcase. I don't see him being able to handle the big leagues.
The only reason he's getting a chance now is because he's out of options, had a decent two months of a 4 year minor league career, and we have a lot of money invested in him.
uhhhhh okay..... I thought it had something to do with his Power, OBP, BB:K etc.... but I guess you could be right as well....
I don't think he will be a star but to say he won't be able to handle the big leagues period is stretching it imo.
He is a dissapointment for how high he was drafted but most prospects are.
Munson's stats and bio:
http://www.forecaster.ca/detnews/baseball/player.cgi?2388
Edman85
12-18-2002, 10:33 PM
And your problem with him is...?
He's a guy without a position on this team who can't run and can't make consistent contact. He's not better than Pena and he's committed 29 errors in 2 seasons at 1st base. So that suggests he can't play third. If he was still a catcher, I'd be excited. But he's just a below average 1st baseman/DH. If he plays 3rd, he'll hurt the team defensively and still may struggle with the bat.
Edman85
12-18-2002, 11:12 PM
Right, but the stats you showed to "support" your argument show a steady increase in walks and homers throughout his career as he progresses through the system. Why would that not continue into this year? As long as he can hit, we will find a position for him, and that should be true for anybody.
I showed the stats because I thought they were interesting and others might want to see them. That's why I posted the link. Is that OK?
OldTimey
12-19-2002, 11:14 AM
jake, you were arguing as much as anyone esle so let's not play the innocent victim. Support your argument or if you're proven wrong admit it. But don't act so persecuted.
No, I just posted it because I was on the website. Then we can all argue on an equal playing field. I hate arguing with unarmed men who make the same tired old argument day in and day out and who refuse to take any risk regarding expressing their own actual opinion on something.
Does that clear it up?
lionstigersand...
12-19-2002, 12:37 PM
well, he isn't all that fluid...maybe jake has a point...
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