Guys I DON'T want to see in a Tiger uniform next year. [Archive]

ErieTigerFan

10-01-2006, 10:29 PM

Neifi Perez
Sean Casey
Fernando Rodney
Omar Infante
Jamie Walker (Go ahead, flame me)

Just my opinion. Who do you not wanna see next year?

Casey - wrong, unless we can land a guy who can ding 40 HR's and drive in 130. This guy brings alot more to the table in terms of his presence on the bench, his ability to get wood on the ball more frequently than alot of the free-swingers, and defensive ability he doesn't get credit for and Chris Shelton only dreams he had.

Rodney - well......kinda hard to argue, since there are still other good arms in the pen.

Infante - are you joking? Just teach the kid to go the opposite way, and he's a better hitter than Placido.

Walker - with you on that one, although he does have his limited uses, like pitching to one left-handed batter or two a game.

Jo3y

10-01-2006, 10:30 PM

Doesn't Casey hit career .300? Also, isn't he a great clubhouse guy?
Why is everyone so Anit-Everything??

T.O. Tiger Fan

10-01-2006, 10:30 PM

Colon.

ErieTigerFan

10-01-2006, 10:30 PM

I can't figure out why so many people are anti Inge?
I might not live in Detroit but I watch every game....

He may not be Mike Schmidt or even Brooks Robinson, but he's miles ahead in his career, and I'll take him on my team any day of the week.

Jo3y

10-01-2006, 10:32 PM

Right on ErieTigerFan!! Made more unbelievable plays than any other 3rd baseman this year!!!

jadefalcon

10-01-2006, 10:33 PM

I can't figure out why so many people are anti Inge?
I might not live in Detroit but I watch every game....

People are anti-Inge because he sucks and he is primarily responsible for this miserable choke job.

I also want Miner and Colon gone. If we can get a league-average left feilder, I want Monroe gone too.

estrepe1

10-01-2006, 10:34 PM

Doesn't Casey hit career .300? Also, isn't he a great clubhouse guy?
Why is everyone so Anit-Everything??

Have you looked at Casey's numbers here? Have you looked at his past 3 years in comparison with the kind of production that you would want from a first baseman?

I can understand why you would argue for Inge. Inge is fine with me because he is a bottom order hitter with a great glove at 3B.

Casey is indefensible though.

Jo3y

10-01-2006, 10:34 PM

Lets just start over and rebuild!!! sell the farm!

Biff Mayhem

10-01-2006, 10:35 PM

Miner
Rodney
Casey
Perez

tiger337

10-01-2006, 10:38 PM

Why do people still like Casey so much?

rhino

10-01-2006, 10:41 PM

Niefe Perez.

One of either Monroe or Thames, they are both too similiar types of player to keep on the same roster.

I'm not crazy about Sean Casey, but I wouldn't dump him without a significant upgrade.

I have very litle confidence in Rodney, but, again, I wouldn't dump him without an upgrade in the wings.

rhino

10-01-2006, 10:43 PM

Do we bring Stairs back as a platoon with either Thames or Monroe?

Oblong

10-01-2006, 10:45 PM

I don't care who is in a Tiger uniform next year. What I care about is who is in the Tiger lineup and where.

The only guy I feel strong about not having back is Perez because he really doesn't fill any need. I'm not opposed to Casey because he could be a useful bench guy.

Jo3y

10-01-2006, 10:49 PM

We all sound to hopeless. Lets be optimistic about these playoffs.

pyrotigers

10-01-2006, 10:50 PM

Their are plenty of people I don't care if they come back or not, but the only person I actively *want* gone is Neifi Perez.

I would *like* to upgrade over several people, namely Craig Monroe, Sean Casey/Chris Shelton, Gomez/Clevlen 5th OF combo, and Durbin/Lewis/Colon/Miner reliable bullpen arm.

But Perez is the only one I really, really, really, want gone.

IdahoBert

10-01-2006, 11:16 PM

Buddha

10-01-2006, 11:21 PM

Casey and Perez and Shelton. I like Inge for his bat and glove and think knocking him is wrong. A lot of the pitchers would be good trade bait and we know who they are. Ledezma, Miner, Tata, Maroth etc..Bonderman if we can get a big bat.

I agree.

Inge cost us the game, but he's been pretty decent this season, especially with the glove. And he can play anywhere in a pinch and his contract is relatively cheap.

Speaking of $$$, how much I want any player depends on how much they cost. I wouldn't deal Bonderman unless it's in some deal to get Miguel Cabrera or that type of young bat.

I wouldn't deal Bonderman for Texiera. Not unless they throw something else in too.

blue

10-01-2006, 11:27 PM

I think it would be premature to get rid of Shelton. He's young and it's quite possible that eventually he'll be able to clear his head again, learn to adjust his hitting approach, and bat more similar to how he was batting at the beginning of the season.

Also, I thought Infante did a decent job as a bench guy. It seemed like he had more than a few extra-base hits and multi-hit games.

Walker is generally a pretty good lefty, especially when just used for one inning.

I'd really like to see the starting lineup become less strikeout-prone. I think the logical places to do that are at 1B and LF (upgrading over Monroe), and maybe 3B. Granderson is still young and maybe can become more patient and develop a better eye.

ewsieg

10-01-2006, 11:35 PM

Manny Ramirez
AROD
Miguel Tijeda

(Note: I didn't want Rogers or Jones last year, and we got them both. Maybe the Tigers can tick me off again by getting the above guys.)

atomicrod

10-01-2006, 11:43 PM

Tigers are going to have to be careful building their bull pen for next season. I don't know if they are going to want to pay Walker the amount of money he's going to want in his final contract that if you remove him, you have to find a left hander. Ledezma might be able to fill that role just as well for a lot less money.

Jones will be a year older, so expect some saves, a few more ugly outings.

Zumaya will either become closer or 8th inning guy.

So if Rodney is one of the players dumped, Detroit would need a very reliable late innings guy they can use to bridge the game between the 6th to 8th inning. I doubt that is going to be easy to find.

Middle releif should be easier to find or keep the same. Durbin or Minor could handle a mop up role if needed.

As for others I want to see no more of once the season is over.
1. Perez - No brainer there. He is terriable.
2. Casey - One thing I noticed with Casey, little diversion but will get to the point. One of the reasons it appears the National league is worse off than the American is because the advance scouting appears to be lacking. When Casey came to Detroit his reputation was a spray hitter than could hit the ball anywhere. After about two weeks, teams positioned the SS behind 2b, moved the outfield over to left and Casey stopped getting hits. He started flying out to the left fielder and grounding to the SS behind 2b on a ton of at bats. He's a great person, not worth the money and at this point, I honestly don't think he's as good of a player as Chris Shelton.
3. Jeremy Bonderman - If and only if, a trade of Bonderman gives Detroit a high On base % slugging player. If not, I would remove him from this list, especially if he comes though in the playoffs.

I thought about not commenting in this thread because I don't want to critize a team that is going to the playoffs. I'm disappointed they lost today, but it no longer mattes. I've had too much fun all year watching this team win games. All and all, I think this will be Dombrowski's biggest test as a GM. He's gotten a team to the playoff level, keeping them there and advancing may prove more difficult than building up from nothing.

estrepe1

10-01-2006, 11:52 PM

Lets just start over and rebuild!!! sell the farm!

Yes because that is what getting rid of Casey indicates.

shabba4detroit

10-02-2006, 12:34 AM

Fernando Rodney
Zack Miner
Neifi Perez
Roman Colon
Fernando Rodney
Chris Shelton
Fernando Rodney
Fernando Rodney

oh, and did I mention Fernando Rodney?

DET Mr Malefic

10-02-2006, 12:51 AM

Fernando Rodney[/B]
Omar Infante
Jamie Walker (Go ahead, flame me)

Just my opinion. Who do you not wanna see next year?

Absolute lunacy.

FloridaTigers

10-02-2006, 12:53 AM

Absolute lunacy.

Infante had potential but was rushed. His swing has some terrible issues. Walker is the most overrated Tiger. Seriously, an 85ish MPH fastball? Rodney? Please, he is either on or off. He is off alot more often, and when he is off, its ugly.

Casey? What has he done for us since being dealt here? His stats are terrible. He is past his prime.

DET Mr Malefic

10-02-2006, 12:55 AM

The only people on the team that I certainly do not want back are Casey, Jones, and Perez.

There are two players that I think could be traded for above their true value, and the Tigers would be the better for doing so. Those two players are Craig Monroe and Nate Robertson. However, I don't necessarily want both gone (well....I do want Monroe on the bench or gone, one or the other).

DET Mr Malefic

10-02-2006, 12:57 AM

Infante had potential but was rushed. His swing has some terrible issues. Walker is the most overrated Tiger. Seriously, an 85ish MPH fastball? Rodney? Please, he is either on or off. He is off alot more often, and when he is off, its ugly.

Infante had a better season than Polanco, and people have acted as if Polanco was some sort of God. If Polanco is Aries, Infante is Zeus.

I've not seen Walker being overrated. It's tough to overrate a soft tossing lefty who manages a K/9 of 6.94 and posts an ERA under 3 in 48 innings. He's been solid for years and this year he was very good.

Rodney had an excellent season, I don't even think he needs to be defended really, I don't understand why people hate him. At all. Since I don't understand the criticisms, I can't defend them. He's been great.

FloridaTigers

10-02-2006, 01:12 AM

Infante had a better season than Polanco, and people have acted as if Polanco was some sort of God. If Polanco is Aries, Infante is Zeus.

I've not seen Walker being overrated. It's tough to overrate a soft tossing lefty who manages a K/9 of 6.94 and posts an ERA under 3 in 48 innings. He's been solid for years and this year he was very good.

Rodney had an excellent season, I don't even think he needs to be defended really, I don't understand why people hate him. At all. Since I don't understand the criticisms, I can't defend them. He's been great.

Can you prove that Infante had a better season? Polanco is much better defensively and you know what...we won usually when PP played. During Infante's time, wasn't there a massive slump?

tiger337

10-02-2006, 01:19 AM

Can you prove that Infante had a better season? Polanco is much better defensively and you know what...we won usually when PP played. During Infante's time, wasn't there a massive slump?

They had a massive slump that started before Polanco got hurt. It was caused by a large number of hitters going into slumps at the same time. It had very little to do with Polanco's absence . They played horrible this week with Polanco on the team. Was this his fault?

DET Mr Malefic

10-02-2006, 01:24 AM

Can you prove that Infante had a better season? Polanco is much better defensively and you know what...we won usually when PP played. During Infante's time, wasn't there a massive slump?

I don't remember Infante having a "time". In fact, I was very angry about him never getting a "time". He played for about a week after Polanco got hurt and they traded for Neifi Perez, and it was then Neifi's time.

Furthermore, we won usually. Period. You don't have to add "when PP played". We won usually. Our team won 95 games. While it cannot be discounted that Polanco started in many games and therefore had his hand in the success, he had a terrible season and certainly was less responsible for the success than any other Tigers offensive starter, and was less responsible for it than Marcus Thames too, for that matter.

Polanco is better defensively, that is true, but again, he's not the second coming of Bill Mazeroski in the field, so let's be reasonable. Infante was way better at the plate and his positive contributions hitting compared to Polanco's I believe are greater than Polanco's positive contributions fielding when compared to Infante. Even if you cannot agree on that premise, it is at least equal.

I'm not ready to junk Polanco, because I think he was hurt early and that he may very well just be having a "down year", but the fact is that he had a terrible season and Leyland was foolhardy for keeping him in the #2 spot all year long.

slim pickens

10-02-2006, 01:35 AM

If we can get a league-average left feilder, I want Monroe gone too.Isnt that what Monroe already is? .250 BA 28 HR 92 RBI?

monkeytargets37

10-02-2006, 02:04 AM

I want the following players gone (or at least not with the major league club) at the start of 07:

1B: Casey
2B: Perez
SS: Santiago
OF: Thames
P: Miner
P: Colon

In the event that no offseason moves are made, these guys should start the season in Detroit:

C-Pudge
1B-Stairs (hopefully we'll find a better option, but I like him over Shelton and Casey at this point)
2B-Polanco
SS-Guillen
3B-Inge
LF-Monroe (something needs to be done about his notorious slow starts)
CF-Granderson
RF-Ordonez
C-Wilson
2B/SS-Infante
1B/DH-Shelton (give him a chance at the start of the season and then get rid of him if he doesnt have a good April)
OF-Gomez/Clevlen (I'd prefer Gomez b/c I think he's ready to breakout as a 4th OF)

SP1-Rogers
SP2-Verlander
SP3-Bonderman
SP4-Robertson
SP5-Ledezma
P-Walker
P-Grilli
P-Rodney
P-Zumaya
P-Jones
P-?
P-?

I'd like to have a veteran reliever w/good control and another hard thrower in there. I think we can get that if we ship Casey/Thames and Miner out and deal Spurling since the org. hates him.

monkeytargets37

10-02-2006, 02:06 AM

And by the way, my expectations for next year are still for us to be about an 82-85 win team. The bar cant be set too high for next year or else we'll all get disappointed if the magic cant be recreated

slim pickens

10-02-2006, 02:07 AM

and deal Spurling since the org. hates him.
Spurling has been in Miluakee for some time now!

monkeytargets37

10-02-2006, 02:09 AM

Spurling has been in Miluakee for some time now!

ah thats right. forgot we finally got rid of him

Truth

10-02-2006, 02:16 AM

They had a massive slump that started before Polanco got hurt. It was caused by a large number of hitters going into slumps at the same time. It had very little to do with Polanco's absence . They played horrible this week with Polanco on the team. Was this his fault?

It had a lot to do with Polanco's absence since non of his fill ins could hit at the top of the order.

As for people I don't want to see in a Tiger uniform next year...Shelton and Miner. Guys I don't want to see starting anymore...Casey and Monroe. I like Casey but I don't want to see the Tigers start the year rolling the dice on how he might perform, they need a solid RBI bat at 1B.

djhutch

10-02-2006, 06:58 AM

Perez has 1 year left on his contract, so my guess is he'll be here. The only name that pops into my mind is Shelton. 1B is the biggest need in the off-season.

Yoda

10-02-2006, 07:50 AM

How in the world does someone conisder Monroe to be below average? I'd like to upgrade him, but not for someone else that is average.

billfer

10-02-2006, 08:01 AM

It had a lot to do with Polanco's absence since non of his fill ins could hit at the top of the order.

The Tigers 2nd base position, even including Perez's at-bats, performed better than Polanco's season numbers. In fact, 2nd base and shortstop were the only 2 positions/players not to go in to tremendous slumps during that time. During that time only Ordonez/Inge/Infante/Guillen had OBPs above 300.

It had nothing to do with Polanco's absence.

pfife

10-02-2006, 08:12 AM

NJ Jackal

10-02-2006, 08:22 AM

Guys I wouldn't mind seeing gone:
Miner (won't miss him much)
Rodney (only if the Tigers find somebody better for the pen)
Colon (next)
Casey (why do people like him so much?)
Perez (adds little to the team)

Jones and Rogers each have one season until retirement. I don't think Jones will mind taking a smaller role next season; he has always had a great attitude and I don't see that changing in his final major league season. I think Dombrowski is willing to eat a small contract like what is left on Perez's deal. I think Shelton stays. It would be nice to keep stairs as a platoon DH and pinch hitter. Either Monroe or Thames will be traded in the off-season. There's little need for both of them, especially with the emergence of Clevlen and the bright outlook of the minor league outfielders in the system.

One or more of these pitchers will be involved in a trade this off-season:
Bonderman
Robertson
Ledezma
Maroth
Miner

tater6

10-02-2006, 09:00 AM

In this order. These guys are easily replaced with better talent.
2B: Perez
1B: Casey
SS: Santiago
P-Walker
P-Rodney
OF-Gomez
OF: Thames
2B/SS-Infante
P-Grilli

Inge stays, but not as a starting 3B.

billfer

10-02-2006, 11:09 AM

In this order. These guys are easily replaced with better talent.
2B: Perez
1B: Casey
SS: Santiago
P-Walker
P-Rodney
OF-Gomez
OF: Thames
2B/SS-Infante
P-Grilli

Inge stays, but not as a starting 3B.

Are you talking about replacing them with better talent regardless of role? Sure there are better options than Thames, but to serve as an extra outfielder/DH he is very very acceptable especially pre-arbitration. The same is true of Infante. He is a very adequate extra infielder.

Now granted, yes there are many better outfielders out there, and better infielders, but are they willing to accept a back-up role and at what cost?

I don't think some of those are easy upgrades.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 11:40 AM

Bonderman
Robertson
Ledezma
Maroth
Miner

If they trade Bonderman, they better get a huge return. I know a lot of people here don't like him that much but he is 23 years old and still a valuable young talent. I have a feeling DD likes him better than people here do and I doubt they'll trade him. I think Robertson is more likely to go. He's a solid pitcher but I think this is as good as he gets. They might trade him if some pitcher hungry organization will overpay. The other 3 have some value in a small trade but are not likely to bring back a significant upgrade.

atomicrod

10-02-2006, 11:53 AM

If they trade Bonderman, they better get a huge return. I know a lot of people here don't like him that much but he is 23 years old and still a valuable young talent. I have a feeling DD likes him better than people here do and I doubt they'll trade him. I think Robertson is more likely to go. He's a solid pitcher but I think this is as good as he gets. They might trade him if some pitcher hungry organization will overpay. The other 3 have some value in a small trade but are not likely to bring back a significant upgrade.

Lee, I wonder with Bonderman if Leyland is going to have something to say, possibly just short of the final say, on his future with the team. It seems like Leyland has a very short tolerance level with him. Whenever he gets into any sort of potential rough spot, runner on 1st and 2nd, no one out type situtation, Leyland is jumping out of the dugout to go calm him down and keep him focused.

We saw it again yesterday with the contstant mound visits from Pudge and Rodriguez. Looking at his facial expressions/body language when Inge tried to short hop that grounder, he just seemed to have the impression of "here we go again"

I'm wondering if Leyland will be patient with that another season or not. He said eariler in the year that it was time for Bonderman to graduate. As of now, I have no idea if the manager feels he's done that or not. Of any of the Tigers pitchers, Bonderman is the one where he often times sprints out the the mound quickly. Now, that could be a credit to Leyland, knowing each players temperments or it could be the sign that a manager has discerened that a player has a difficult time with his emotions. Either way, at some point Bonderman's gotta realize he can't have 1,2,3 innings all the time and he's going to allow runs here and there. Possibly that is a factor of his struggles in 03 where if you allowed 2 runs you were taking a loss. Who knows on that one.

I agree that DD will have more patience wtih him. I'd just love to be a fly on the wall in the post season evulations to find out exactly what Leyland thinks of him and his potential.

ewsieg

10-02-2006, 12:40 PM

OF: Thames

I was quite shocked by this at first. I think Thames has been awesome and deserves some Tiger MVP votes. But then I checked the numbers. Assuming he played another 30 games, your right, I can't really compare him to any OF's. Based on this year, he's only comparable with the likes of Tiexara, Sexson, AROD, Crede, Glaus...oh a few OF's; Sizemore, Hunter, Swisher.

If Thames is so easily replacable, why don't we have the above type of players on our team already?

zachcadillac

10-02-2006, 12:43 PM

Thames is so inexpensive, it would be silly not to bring him back.

pyrotigers

10-02-2006, 01:42 PM

How in the world does someone conisder Monroe to be below average? I'd like to upgrade him, but not for someone else that is average.

Low batting average...abysmal on base percentage....average defense.

He has solid power, but that's about it, obviously we probably value him more than others because we've seen him come up with so many big hits, but statistically he hasn't been very good at all, definitely below average offensively for a corner outfielder.

estrepe1

10-02-2006, 01:46 PM

Thames is so inexpensive, it would be silly not to bring him back.

Agreed.

Low batting average...abysmal on base percentage....average defense.

He has solid power, but that's about it, obviously we probably value him more than others because we've seen him come up with so many big hits, but statistically he hasn't been very good at all, definitely below average offensively for a corner outfielder.

Also agreed. I think that his power makes up for quite a bit. But the team shouldn't hesitate to find an upgrade for that position.

SacBunt

10-02-2006, 01:52 PM

We saw it again yesterday with the contstant mound visits from Pudge and Rodriguez.

Pudge bringing his alter-ego to the mound with him? Kind of a good-cop / bad-cop thing?

One of the best things the Twins did to get the AL Central crown was that weird comeback win against Bonderman back in July. Bondo hasn't been the same since.

atomicrod

10-02-2006, 03:09 PM

Pudge bringing his alter-ego to the mound with him? Kind of a good-cop / bad-cop thing?

Whoops, bad typo, ment to say Guillen.

Getting a good laugh out of it anyway.

wolverinefan

10-02-2006, 03:14 PM

I don't understand the Inge and Rodney hate.

moonwatcher

10-02-2006, 03:18 PM

we can't compete in a spending battle. just cant get rid of a bunch of guys like that and expect to replace them with better talent. that being said. jeremy bonderman needs to go. its sad. but he cant handle the pressure. neifi is obvioulsy gone.

caseyo4

10-02-2006, 03:18 PM

Infante - are you joking? Just teach the kid to go the opposite way, and he's a better hitter than Placido.

You could say the same thing for most of the Tigers....

caseyo4

10-02-2006, 03:19 PM

Thames is so inexpensive, it would be silly not to bring him back.

Not necessarily. His numbers translated through arbitration are going to inflate his contract.

thefunk

10-02-2006, 03:28 PM

This thread should never of been started until the off-season. We still have games to play with these guys, remember? the playoffs??

what a pointless thread. as if you all can change anything anyway.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 03:29 PM

Lee, I wonder with Bonderman if Leyland is going to have something to say, possibly just short of the final say, on his future with the team. It seems like Leyland has a very short tolerance level with him. Whenever he gets into any sort of potential rough spot, runner on 1st and 2nd, no one out type situtation, Leyland is jumping out of the dugout to go calm him down and keep him focused.

We saw it again yesterday with the contstant mound visits from Pudge and Rodriguez. Looking at his facial expressions/body language when Inge tried to short hop that grounder, he just seemed to have the impression of "here we go again"

I'm wondering if Leyland will be patient with that another season or not. He said eariler in the year that it was time for Bonderman to graduate. As of now, I have no idea if the manager feels he's done that or not. Of any of the Tigers pitchers, Bonderman is the one where he often times sprints out the the mound quickly. Now, that could be a credit to Leyland, knowing each players temperments or it could be the sign that a manager has discerened that a player has a difficult time with his emotions. Either way, at some point Bonderman's gotta realize he can't have 1,2,3 innings all the time and he's going to allow runs here and there. Possibly that is a factor of his struggles in 03 where if you allowed 2 runs you were taking a loss. Who knows on that one.

I agree that DD will have more patience wtih him. I'd just love to be a fly on the wall in the post season evulations to find out exactly what Leyland thinks of him and his potential.

I agree Bonderman seems to make Leyland nervous but I've got to think the organization will be patient with a 23 year old pitcher with that kind of ability.
Young pitching is central to everything that DD is doing and if Leyland decided he wanted to move Bonderman out of here, there would likely be some serious head butting. I really don't think it would reach that point for another couple of years though. 23 is awfully young.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 03:32 PM

It had a lot to do with Polanco's absence since non of his fill ins could hit at the top of the order.

.
'
Neither can he. He doesn't get on base enough.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 03:34 PM

Low batting average...abysmal on base percentage....average defense.

He has solid power, but that's about it, obviously we probably value him more than others because we've seen him come up with so many big hits, but statistically he hasn't been very good at all, definitely below average offensively for a corner outfielder.

I think he's slightly below average mostly becaue he can't get on base. He's not terrible but I'd rather not see him starting on a playoff team.

djhutch

10-02-2006, 03:56 PM

I keep going back & forth on Bonderman. No way Verlander is going anywhere, so of the other remaining SPs Bondo will bring the greatest return (like a Teixeira). However, I can't get the thought of the Red Sox & Clemens with him. I would hate to look back 10 years from now & see Bonderman winning Cy Young's & knowing we gave up on him too soon.

I was encouraged during one of the telecasts to hear one of the guy mention that Bondo may work on adding a splitter next season.

10-02-2006, 04:00 PM

Not only subtraction but additions have to be made. Starting at left side of the field. Inge and Monroe can not be starters in the AL batting sub .250. Move Magglio to DH and look for a capable RF and last but not least 1B has to be addressed. Shelton does not look very good right now and Casey is overpayed.

If no additions are made this team may sink back to 4th with White Sox, and Twins being better and the Indians improving. They have to stay above the others in term of improvement.

The only current bench player I wouldn't mind returning is Stairs, he can provide power of the bench and is left handed which they currently lack.

zachcadillac

10-02-2006, 04:01 PM

Not necessarily. His numbers translated through arbitration are going to inflate his contract.

He's not eligible for arbitration. He'll cost about $350,000 next year.

atomicrod

10-02-2006, 04:12 PM

I agree Bonderman seems to make Leyland nervous but I've got to think the organization will be patient with a 23 year old pitcher with that kind of ability.
Young pitching is central to everything that DD is doing and if Leyland decided he wanted to move Bonderman out of here, there would likely be some serious head butting. I really don't think it would reach that point for another couple of years though. 23 is awfully young.

I'm pretty interested to see how he does in the playoffs. I think overall you are correct. At 23 it's a serious risk to give up on him. Some of his stats, especially the strike out ratio and his win/loss record the last two years, suggest that he's a good 3rd pitcher right now.

I think one of the difficutlies I have as a fan is how he's showcased in the media. We've had it pounded into our heads that he's supposed to be the ace. Rod and Mario go on and on about him having the best slider in baseball, then I tend to forget that up till this season he's never really had much of a chance to pitch with the lead, so it should not be suprising that he struggles in that situtation. He's always had to be a guy that could not allow a run or else he was in trouble. That is going to be key in his development, can he hold leads and not allow a team to bleed back into a game.

I'm concerned with his innings load on such a young arm, 749 at the end of this year. I realize there is usually a point where a pitcher who dosen't experience an arm injury early in their career probably won't. I'm hoping that Bonderman has passed that.

If he's going to be delt then I think it has to be something that is no doubt in return, the type of deal that would make us all say "I can't beleive we got that guy" On Saturday Caputo was saying the rumor he's heard is Bonderman/Inge for Migael Tejhda. If DD made that type of deal I would not be too interested.

Unless it's a KO deal, the Tigers should hang on to him.

kpking3032

10-02-2006, 04:27 PM

rodeny seems like he'd be a valuable trade chip because scouts and pitching coaches probably think they can round him and his change-up into shape.

det6884

10-02-2006, 05:03 PM

perez. rodney, miner, colon. perez was a roll of the dice that didn't work out, but didn't cost us anything either. rodney is the most unreliable pitcher we've had in quite some time. he is greatly over-rated and could be easily replaced. the fact that he was ever considered the future closer baffles me. miner has run his course and colon is not consistant enough.
i like casey, so i'm biased there. inge makes up for the slightly below average batting average with his glove and connon-arm. seems nobody had a problem with palmer's .245-.250 average and 25-30 homers, and his glove was nowhere near inge's.
i agree there will probably be a pitcher moved.
i also agree that it's a bit early to criticize the team. they have done a great job this year and, let's face it, there are 22 other teams that wish they were in detroit's position. they've done our city proud.

illmatic774

10-02-2006, 05:12 PM

I'll take omar and walker.

I want Bonderman gone if it means we get Tiexiera.

I want Inge gone so that we can get a competant third baseman.

yep.

TwistedTigers

10-02-2006, 05:36 PM

CARCAS FLAMES!!! he stinks! anyone for tony clark coming back?

tigerkid23

10-02-2006, 05:39 PM

CARCAS FLAMES!!! he stinks! anyone for tony clark coming back?

Tony Clark was my favorite player for a long, long time, but I want nothing to do with an oft-injured, 34 year old 1B who puts up a .197/.279/.364 line.

Anthony

10-02-2006, 05:42 PM

CARCAS FLAMES!!! he stinks! anyone for tony clark coming back?

:ponder: :paranoid:

TwistedTigers

10-02-2006, 05:47 PM

ya well hed be an upgrade over sean casey...If he and easley came back to fill in for casey and perez, id wet myself

tater6

10-02-2006, 05:55 PM

I was quite shocked by this at first. I think Thames has been awesome and deserves some Tiger MVP votes. But then I checked the numbers. Assuming he played another 30 games, your right, I can't really compare him to any OF's. Based on this year, he's only comparable with the likes of Tiexara, Sexson, AROD, Crede, Glaus...oh a few OF's; Sizemore, Hunter, Swisher.

If Thames is so easily replacable, why don't we have the above type of players on our team already?
If he is that good, why isn't he in the lineup everyday and hitting in the 3-4-5 spot.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 06:09 PM

If he is that good, why isn't he in the lineup everyday and hitting in the 3-4-5 spot.

He isn't THAT good but he is better than the Tigers 3rd hitter right now.

ballmich

10-02-2006, 06:14 PM

my list:

1. Perez - i'm not even going to get into this one. he really has no business being in the majors, let alone being on detroit's roster.
2. Santiago - not the worst utility IF of all time, but why keep infante AND santiago? i'd rather have santiago over perez, but really, give me a back-up IF who can hit a little bit or no one at all (particularly as the back-up to the back-up middle IF).
3. Casey - too brittle. not good enough. if we are going to settle for sub-.800 OPS at 1b, then we can find it a hell of a lot cheaper than what it would take to re-sign casey.
4. Monroe - really i should put monroe/thames, as one has to go. but i prefer to keep thames, because monroe will make too much money in 2007 to justify his barely adequate .800 OPS and sub-par defense (though he does have a good arm, which i won't deny). i think we can either get cheaper at this position without a drop-off in production, or a better bat and maybe a better defender for a little more money. either way, monroe should go.

these are the only guys that i believe HAVE to go this winter. i have a open mind on a lot of other players, who i would consider moving if we can acquire a replacement.

jadefalcon

10-02-2006, 06:20 PM

Isnt that what Monroe already is? .250 BA 28 HR 92 RBI?

I don't know what the league-average numbers are for a LF'er. I think his run production numbers are good, but his on-base skills (avg. and drawing walks) are abysmal. If we can get a guy like Soriano or Crawford to replace him, I would send Craig on his way in a second. I would really only want to keep Craig if he was the 4th OF'er.

Yoda

10-02-2006, 06:25 PM

I would really only want to keep Craig if he was the 4th OF'er.

But you named two of the best in the league to replace him with. That isn't likely to happen. Do you only want to trade him if you can get one of the two best? I don't really get your point.

MichiganFan1717

10-02-2006, 06:25 PM

My list:

Must Go!
1. Perez
2. Rodney
3. Casey

I don't care if we lose
1. Santiago
2. Thames, if it came down to him or Monroe, I'll keep Monroe
3. Miner, I liked him, but I prefer Maroth if it comes down to it.
4. Ledezma, see above

Guys we'll probably lose, but I'd like to see stay
1. Infante
2. Shelton, give him another year. See if an offseason will help him forget about the homers, and just go back to hitting for doubles in the gap instead of homers
3. Maroth, we have a possible 9 starters next year (The big 4, Miller, Maroth, Miner, Sanchez, Ledezma) someone is going to go, I hope its not Maroth.

Yoda

10-02-2006, 06:28 PM

Microline133

10-02-2006, 06:33 PM

ballmich

10-02-2006, 06:46 PM

I'm a little perplexed by all those that are looking to see Miner gone in 2007.

I don't quite see what's wrong with holding on to a 24-year old kid who just finished his first season in the big leagues. He certainly tired in the season's second half, and was quite ineffective, but he's still got plenty of potential. I just see the sense in tossing aside a kid with a very good 90-93 mph sinker, and solid secondary pitches.

I don't think Miner's 2006 season, is all that different from Robertson's first full Major League season, in 2004.

Personally, I'd be thrilled to have him back, whether it be at the back end of the rotation, in the bullpen, or polishing things up at Toledo until a need arises. He has been, and still is the best player we received in the Farnsworth deal, and until he completely fails at the big league level, I don't see any sense in getting rid of him.

i agree about Miner. i see his future as in the bullpen... but he's young, and has two options left. let him compete in ST, with the likelihood that he starts out 2007 at Toledo. you really can't have enough SP depth, so to stash this guy in the minors and wait for an injury is a nice luxury. if you have to deal him to upgrade LF, 3B or 1B - fine. but we certainly don't HAVE to get rid of him by any means.

dt35456884

10-02-2006, 06:49 PM

If he is that good, why isn't he in the lineup everyday and hitting in the 3-4-5 spot.

Whis is Sean Casey hitting 3rd? Why does Neifi Perez play so much? These are questions only Jim Leyland knows the answer to.

jadefalcon

10-02-2006, 06:56 PM

But you named two of the best in the league to replace him with. That isn't likely to happen. Do you only want to trade him if you can get one of the two best? I don't really get your point.

You know what? I'm not really sure of what I was saying either when I re-read that post.

My Opinions about Craig:
1. He would be best utilized as a 4th OF'er.
2. I would really like an upgrade in LF (Soriano, Crawford, and Lee are the only names that come to mind right now.)
3. If we can't get a tangible upgrade (by getting a really good player like the ones mentioned above), we would be better off sticking with Craig while trying to upgrade the corner infield spots.

I hope this makes things clearer, Yoda.

JonBenke

10-02-2006, 06:59 PM

MACHINE: I agree about Miner, being I see the value in him that you do. If he's gone, I sure hope we got something decent in return.

Of all the pitchers this season, he's the one I have seen start the most - three - and with a 2-1 record in those games, and I liked what I saw.

He threw first pitch strikes, which is always nice to see, and he seemed to have a two strike count on most hitters, and while people said he had no strikeout pitch, I saw it more of him having no confidence in his stuff, at times. He'd get two quick strikes, and almost be unsure at that point .. of what to do - next. Some could chalk that up to being an inexperienced rookie, but of what I saw, trust me, Atlanta fans regret losing him -- that's a fact.

Chris Shelton, at 26, is still kind of young, but I still expect the team to trade him this off season, and to look for a better, bigger bat to play 1B.

JonBenke

10-02-2006, 07:11 PM

If we end up trading away from our somewhat pitching depth, here are some starting free agent pitchers that could be signed as replacements.

SP - Barry Zito
SP - Mark Mulder
SP - Andy Pettitte
SP - Ted Lilly
SP - Gil Meche
SP - Cory Lidle
SP - Jason Marquis
SP - Jeff Weaver

MichiganFan1717

10-02-2006, 07:40 PM

Why would we probably lose Maroth and Shelton? I think with Maroth being injured there's no way we'd be able to trade him. Infante is a good backup but doesn't have much trade value either. I could see us moving them but I don't think it's a probability.
I thought with 9 potential starters, you'd trade atleast 1 for a need. Your probably right with the untradable b/c of injury though. It seemed like they kind of refused to play Shelton after they signed Casey, despite how much Casey stunk. I thought that Infante's contract was up after this year, so he would more than likely go sign with a team where he could go play more.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 08:18 PM

I'm not opposed to Casey because he could be a useful bench guy.

The problem is he's making 8 million and he'd have to either take a huge pay cut or or be a very expensive bench guy. Plus, Leyland seems to like him a lot and I'm afraid he might work himself into an undeserved regular role if he's on the roster.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 08:22 PM

Chris Shelton, at 26, is still kind of young, but I still expect the team to trade him this off season, and to look for a better, bigger bat to play 1B.

Perez was used as a pinch hitter for Stairs yesterday with Shelton on the bench. I think Shelton is gone regardless of what they said when they sent him down. He's the type of guy that might get traded to a saber based organization.

tiger337

10-02-2006, 08:34 PM

Rodney had an excellent season, I don't even think he needs to be defended really, I don't understand why people hate him. At all. Since I don't understand the criticisms, I can't defend them. He's been great.

I don't understand the criticism of Rodney either. Sometimes fans just start hating players for no good reason. I don't know if I'd say that he was "great" but he's certainly not anybody who should be anywhere close to a "must go" list.

I agree with you that Monroe and Robertson are the two players most likely to bring back something of more value than they are worth. Neither one has to be traded though.

ErieTigerFan

10-02-2006, 08:57 PM

Perez was used as a pinch hitter for Stairs yesterday with Shelton on the bench.

As Perez was stepping up to the plate to pinch hit yesterday, I sat at the edge of my couch with my jaw hanging in disbelief, thinking "My God! You've got Vance Wilson on the bench, for crying out loud!" Why on earth was HE not used instead? Was Leyland looking for someone to punch a single and nothing more?

Jonesy

10-02-2006, 09:03 PM

Someone asked why so many are Anti Inge. While I can not speak for others My reason's are this.

Even though he makes the great plays he tanks the easy plays.
And most important is this.

He is the most ANTI CLUTCH hitter I have ever seen. In yesterday's game when Guillen went to second on the throw to third I was actually mad at Guillen for going. Because I knew they would walk Pudge to face crInge. Sure enough they did and he choked. I am curious how many of his Home Runs have come in games that were either already won or were losing and meant nothing.

ballmich

10-02-2006, 09:41 PM

I don't understand the criticism of Rodney either. Sometimes fans just start hating players for no good reason. I don't know if I'd say that he was "great" but he's certainly not anybody who should be anywhere close to a "must go" list.

i was pretty happy with Rodney's first full season in the majors. if you subtract him from the bullpen, it leaves a pretty big hole. i see him as a major component of a very good bullpen in 2007.

i'd say the same thing about walker, i just don't understand the criticism. okay, so he's not the top situational LHP in the game. but he's pretty darn good, and we're not likely to be able to acquire better. i definately hope we can re-sign him, but expect there to be a lot of competition out there.

DET Mr Malefic

10-02-2006, 11:22 PM

I agree with you that Monroe and Robertson are the two players most likely to bring back something of more value than they are worth. Neither one has to be traded though.

Right, I certainly don't think Robertson is a must-go, and neither is Monroe.

I just think that if they are over-valued in the off-season as I believe they may be, the Tigers would be wise to make the deals happen. I have faith that DD will do that if it's there.

atomicrod

10-03-2006, 09:31 AM

Lynn Henning might have shown some light on Bonderman's future today with his column located here. (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061003/SPORTS08/610030388/1129/rss15)

The revelant portion:
IV -- Why Bonderman could not finish off Sunday's game when he had a 6-0 lead

Bonderman is a breathtaking power-pitcher. His fastball (94-95 mph) is top-shelf and his slider is among the most deadly. His change-up is fairly atrocious.

Notice he is nowhere to be found in the rotation the first three games of the upcoming five-game series.

The deepening feeling here is he will be traded during the offseason, mostly because the Tigers have acute hitting needs, and a 200-inning, 200-strikeout pitcher is exactly the kind of thoroughbred who commands big value from a team seeking a top-of-the-rotation guy, which pretty much everyone else is hunting.

Bonderman had to leave the game early after helping blow two 6-0 leads this season. That's difficult stuff for a manager -- or front office -- to forget, particularly for a two-pitch pitcher who is two years from free agency.

Rest of the thread has good analysis/debate if this a good move or not.

DaYooperASBDT

10-03-2006, 09:24 PM

Would like to see Perez, Gomez, and Santiago gone.

Miner should be either long relief or in AAA.

Jones & Maroth - possible trade bait?

Ledezma - keep him in the bullpen

JonBenke

10-03-2006, 10:32 PM

I am not ANTI-Zach Miner .. and most tend to forget that this kid was a rookie this year, and not all rookie pitchers pitch like that Justin Verlander kid.

Maroth will have to come back, being his trade value is pretty low at this point .. Robertson could be used as someone you trade at peak value. If you can trade Robertson, say, and get a good bat .. and sign someone like Ted Lilly, the trade becomes the bat/Lilly for Robertson, and I like that move.

Ledezma will be a throw in pitcher in a package deal, I am guessing, being a team much like we use to be, might want to gamble on him as a starter.

BigCec

10-04-2006, 08:08 AM

Neifi
Perez
Neifi
Rodney
Neifi

I still would like to see Shelton get another chance. And I love Inge at 3rd. I hope he is there a long time.

DaYooperASBDT

10-04-2006, 09:33 AM

Nate's value dropped a notch yesterday .....
:bored:

JonBenke

10-04-2006, 09:51 AM

Nate's value dropped a notch yesterday
I hope you don't seriously think that.

DaYooperASBDT

10-04-2006, 02:19 PM

No, it's only one start. But some lesser baseball minds may be swayed by it.

jake

10-04-2006, 02:24 PM

Why do people still like Casey so much?

I can't stand him. He can't hit for power, he can't run, he can't get on base. And he's our 3 hole hitter. Sad.

jake

10-04-2006, 02:27 PM

People are anti-Inge because he sucks and he is primarily responsible for this miserable choke job.

I also want Miner and Colon gone. If we can get a league-average left feilder, I want Monroe gone too.

Hey, that's funny, because I remember he was also at fault for the 119 losses a few years back. Amazing how he can be the cause of us losing a record amount of games in a season AND be the reason we didn't have the best record in baseball.