Tigers to Acquire Neagle?

[OldTimey]

http://www.freep.com/sports/tigers/tigbrf7_20021107.htm

Tigers reported to be dealing for Colorado pitcher Neagle

November 7, 2002





BY GENE GUIDI
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER





Reports out of Colorado indicate the Rockies and Tigers have revived trade talks regarding left-hander Denny Neagle.

The teams talked about a trade during the summer, but Neagle said he would exercise his right to veto any deal, which ended the discussions.

Neagle then spent some time in the Rockies' bullpen, and that might prompt him to change his mind. Neagle was 8-11 with a 5.26 ERA this past season, but those numbers probably would improve if he moved from hitter-friendly Coors Field to spacious Comerica Park.

The Tigers are looking to dump salary, and they likely view Neagle as someone who could be easier to trade down the road than some of their current players with large contracts. It's believed the Tigers would take Neagle -- who is owed $37 million on a multiyear contract -- only if the Rockies assumed some salary in return -- like Bobby Higginson ($29.55 million for three years) or Damion Easley ($13 million for two years). But, like Neagle, Higginson has a no-trade clause in his contract and said recently that he doesn't want to leave Detroit now that Alan Trammell is manager.

[OldTimey]

This actually makes a lot of sense to me in that I think he would at least be more valuable than Easley and if he pitched well would make great deadline fodder.

[jake]

It makes no sense because no one will trade for those guys.

[OldTimey]

If Neagle went back and pitched like he did before he went to Coors nobody would trade for him? You don't think there's a better chance of Neagle being a good pitcher out of Coors than there is for Damion Easley to ever be good again?

[Shaggy Ry]

I think it would be a win-win for both teams. Damion Easley would find playing in Colorado better for his offensive game and Neagle would find pitching in Comerica Park better for his performance. I'd want them to take another bad contract off us as well though as we'd be taking on $24 million in salary. Higginson is going nowhere and Colorado has little use for Dmitri Young - unless they move Walker - as they are trying to do. Is Palmer a 10-5 guy? Easley could block this trade as well - Would he do it?? It's probably in his best interest to get his game offense on track and hopefully earn himself another contract.

This trade would have to signal more moves though, because there is no way we are going to have a rotation consisting of four lefties. Could Mark Redman be already dealt, or at least involved in heavy discussion??

Dmitri Young and Damion Easley to Colorado for Denny Neagle and a couple of prospects sounds good to me. The salaries would be a wash, but Colorado could deal Larry Walker and this way would go a long way to redistributing their salarys, which they are reportedly trying to do.

There is certain risk, but if I'm, not mistaken he can demand a trade(since he was dealt in the midst of a multi-year contract) and if we can't trade him he can become a free-agent. Furthermore even marginal success should make him a commodity as he is a left hander afterall.

This trade would go a long way in cleaning up our salary mess and allow us to spend on players we feel could help us.

[jake]

Damion Easley isn't going anywhere because he is horrible and way overpaid. We are stuck with him and Higgy. Neagle has positive value. Easley and Higgy, because of what they are paid, have negative value.

[OldTimey]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/rockies/article/0,1299,DRMN_19_1529682,00.html

Article suggests that they would take not only Easley but HAlter or Paquette and even possibly Palmer.

[cruzer1]

OT, how did you make that article up? Not in my wildest dreams would I ever suspect any major league team considering any of those players. Let's just hope the Tigers can provide the Rockies with a 3d baseman!:D

[OldTimey]

It hinges on NEagle accepting the offer. But it also looks like he might be more willing. I betcha DD can talk him into it!

[Ranger]

This is like when we traded Mlicki for Lima... nothing good really came of it. Just a switch of bad players.

But if they take Easley, Halter/Paquette and Palmer (which salaries combined might a little more than Neagles) could be good - saves us at least 2 roster spots.

When does Neagle's contract expire? I'm pretty sure Palmer's and Halters/Paquette are up after this season and Easley after 2004.

[Dan Gilmore]

I guess I would see it as a bit better than the Mlicki/Lima trade if we were to dump Easley and Paquette. Neagle's numbers are better than either of those starters and that is at Coors. He is lefthanded and should be pretty effective at COPA. And I see little reason to keep Easley (maybe he'll improve under Tram, but he would really improve hitting fastballs at Coors), since I like Jackson better right now and like Santiago or Infante better before long. It might lead to us trading Maroth (CF?) in a package. Nobody is going to take Palmer's salary now until he proves to be healthy enough to play fairly regularly (if that ever happens). I know I will be slammed for this, but I am willing to keep Halter as an emergency player - in case Munson can't cut it at third and Palmer doesn't make it back and to fill in at SS. I hope he gets very few at bats, especially in the first few months, to give Munson a chance, and because he has really sucked in the first half, but his offense in the second halves has been decent. If this is a chance to dump Easley, I'm for it.

[MotownRandy]

I think just trade Easley straight up would be a good deal, but if we can get them to take on Halter or Paquette also, I would do that trade in a heartbeat. True, we would have to pay Neagle, but we free up the roster spot or two, it gives us a veteran on the staff that will likely pitch at least a little better and could be traded later, and it sets up more trades for us as Sparks/Redman will be expendable.

Do it DD, just do it!

[MotownRandy]

Also, I disagree with you Jake, the Rockies are willing to take players sometimes that other teams wont because the Rockies know the kind of affect Coors can have on a hitter. Easley could actually hit close to.300 and/or get at least 20 homers if he was their starting second basemean.

[djhutch]

Remember the Rockies are also looking to deal Juan Pierre. We could take Neagle's salary & Pierre, and give them Easley, maybe Palmer, & someone else. Cornejo or Torres?

[OldTimey]

We have Juan Pierre much cheaper in Andres Torres.

[eastside billee]

I think any deal that brings more, used up, garbage to Detroit is a bad Deal. I say - let Colorado keep Neagle. His days are over.

[zachcadillac]

The article really didn't say anything about Colorado's interest in Palmer, just Detroit's interest in ridding themselves of him.

That said, if they wanted to take Easley, Paquette, and Palmer off our hands, I would accept the trade, then send Dan O'Dowd a fine bottle of wine and a key to the city.

[OldTimey]

How can you say that Neagle's days are over? Are you familiar with what happens to a lot of pitchers in Coors?

[Shaggy Ry]

I wouldn't do a 1-for-1 Easley for Neagle as we are taking on way too much contract, and say what you will but aquiring Neagle is still a big risk. Similarly I'd rather keep Palmer he comes off the books in a year anyways, and if he does come back healthy I'm sure we can peddle him around the deadline for a couple of midrange prospects. I'd rather see Halter go that Paquette, as Paquette is better than he played last season and I'd like to see him succeed here. Dmitri Young is signed for 3 more seasons and we have no place for him to play - he has to be part of the deal. He would flourish in Colorado, who have decided to sacrifice defense and speed and plan to win a lot of 11-10 games. Helton is going nowhere, but Walker has been liked to Arizona and Young could play his RF.

Young and Easley for Neagle or I don't do it as we'd be taking on too much of a risk with his long-term contract.

[MotownRandy]

Ryan, if you insist on Young being included, then the discussions may be dead already. The Rockies may see him as only a firstbasmen and they obviously dont need one. Without knowing what Colorado is looking for exactly I dont think you should say that. Besides, Dmitri Young has more value than to be sent in a package for Denny Neagle.


This is a great opportunity for the Tigers to make their roster more flexible. With Easley on the team, the only place he can play is 2B. At least guys like Halter and Paquette can play multiple positions. Flexibility is important because their are prospects that need to play. Move Easley for almost anybody and it is a good trade IMO.

I also think this is a good opportunity for a package deal on both sides. Even if you do not like Juan Pierre, he has more upside than some of the "garbage" we have in Detroit. If we end up making a deal that involves Halter, Paquette, and Easley all going to the Rockies, it would be worth the chance to take a guy like Pierre.

We are not gaining any "garbage", we are trading our "garbage" for their "garbage" and the "garbage" we would receive fits our team better than the previous players.

[OldTimey]

How can that be unless we include Brandon Inge?

[Rob Jones]

I'd not put Young in the category of useless Tigers. He's a fine hitter who is still in his twenties and could be productive for a few years to come. I'm all for trading him if the right deal could be worked out, but not as mere salary dump.

Neagle's vetoed a deal to the Tigers twice before and with the team talking of moving in the LF fence to 370-375', Comerica won't be the haven it once was for a lefty like him. I don't think he'd agree to come. And, I wouldn't be surprised if Easley said no, too, as Higginson would.

[MotownRandy]

Good point Rob I had not thought about Easley's ability to veto...I hope that does not become a problem.

I also agree that Dmitri Young is much more than a salary dump. He has value in a trade and could contribute to this team still.

I have begun to wonder if a certain poster is trying to make me lose my temper and get kicked off of Motowntigers.com.

The difference between Inge and the other guys(Halter, Easley, Paguette) is that Inge does not make alot of money, so assuming he doesnt work out, he will not be much of a risk.

[OldTimey]

Did you not put "garbage" in quotes for my sake?

[jake]

Where do you find these "garbage" articles, OT??

Although, I like the assessment that their "garbage" fits a heckuva lot better than our "garbage".

We have to get rid of the "garbage" attitudes like Halter and Higginson and not necessarily worry about young "garbage". We all know that old "garbage" stinks a lot more than newer "garbage".

[OldTimey]

Biting commentary on my earlier posts jake. I have pointe dout many times by the way that I don't get baited so I wouldn't try much harder than this. It was a lovely attempt and I'm sure if you focused your attentions on others you might be able to get into fake debates and such.

[Shaggy Ry]

I like Dmitri Young, so much so that he is a major reason why I was against the Weaver deal. The problem with Mr. Young is that he is a man without a position - and costing us an arm and a leg. If the TBT can work out a better deal for Dmitri, more power to them, but they better be shedding more than just Easelys salary in the Neagle deal.

Denny Neagle is owed $37M over the next 3 seasons - Damion Easley is owed $13M for two more seasons. I don't want to gamble with $24M of Neagles salary. This guy is a wildcard, and just as he could turn it around and be a good pitcher, he could continue to stink up the joint and we're on the hook for $37M. I'd be willing to take a gamble on his talent - IF we had a similar salary package heading the other way - and Bobby Higginson is going nowhere. Dmitri Young is owed around $20M over the next 3 years(I could be way off on the terms) and makes the salaries a much better match.

Anybody willing to make the the 1-for-1 Easley for Neagle deal is nuts. And ridding ourselves of bit parts as a Halter or even Paquette is still much too high of a gamble. Young has certain value, and Colorado should have to throw in some prospects to get the deal done - but Young has to be included in the deal(Unless Colorado will take Easley, Paquette, Halter, Palmer, and Sparks - which should equal about $30M in remaining salaries)

[MotownRandy]

Anybody willing to make the the 1-for-1 Easley for Neagle deal is nuts.

Ryan, I don't think I qualify as nuts, but I'd be willing to do it. This is why: Easley has absolutely no role with team and is just a waste of a roster spot and money. As a left handed starter, Denny Neagle has alot more value than Easley and he is more deserving of the money than Easley and definately worth the risk.
Don't take this wrong, I don't want this to be a 1 for 1 deal, but if that is the only option than I would do it.

It is true Oldtimey...I put "garbage" in quotes because of you. That is not the word I prefer to use, but it is simpler if I just use it. I don't want to be a hypocrite so I use the quotes to signify that it's not my term.

"Garbage" attitudes I think are included in the overall "garbage" category and those need to go too. Dmitri Young is neither "garbage" in attitude nor performance. I bet he eats alot and that makes alot of garbage though.

[OldTimey]

Young is a good, solid ballplayer. I would not be against keeping him. I think he helps us. However, I also would not be against moving him if we could because he's a bit overpaid.

[BigD]

Why trade at all if your just tryingto dump salaries? Go after free agents Estes from the Reds or Brian Anderson from Arizona, both LH and younger and cheaper than Neagle. Then package Easley and others for Center Fielder or more cost effective utility players.

[Cult of Guillen]

Here's the trade I would be happy with:

To the Rockies: 2B Damian Easley, 3B Craig Paquette

To the Tigers: P Denny Neagle, 2B Jose Ortiz and $7.5 million

Why it works for Colorado: They free up approximately $13 million in salary over the life of Neagle's contract (when you subtract out Easley's salary for the next two years, and Paq's for next). Easley would probably hit well in Coors, and is still a better than average defensive 2B. Paquette has enjoyed success in the NL and is versatile.

Why it works for Detroit: Our rotation is in shambles...there are no guarantees that Van Hekken, Maroth or Cornejo will amount to anything. Neagle helps stabilize the staff and makes Redman expendable if we are overwhelmed with an offer to address 3B or CF. Ortiz serves as insurance at 2B, or helps Toledo get to the postseason again.

Most importantly, though, it clears the path for either Santiago or Infante to demonstrate what they can do at 2B over a full season.

Easley currently stands in the way of a younger player, whereas Neagle would not.

[berneree]

How about Damion Easley for Preston Wilson then???

I have changed my mind, I would not trade Easley for Neagle straight up. That is the kind of trade Randy Smith would have jumped at. 2 years from now, will we be better because of this trade... ABSOLUTELY NOT. We will still have another Neagle season at $12 million to pay. Now if it was Easley for Paul Byrd, or Pettite, I may do it.

But Neagle gives to much of a question mark to make this deal. I fully expect him to pitch well for the Tigers, with a 3.5 era and 12 wins for them. But then again, he has done nothing in the past 2 years to make this a high probability. He is old, and may well be done.

Even though Easley is more overpaid than Neagle, I would rather pay $7 million per year for a bat boy than $12 million per year for a Batting Practice pitcher. I do like Neagle, but $5 million for 2003 and 2004 could be spent on locking up each and every one of our 5 young guys to long-term deals. Better risk on Pena, Munson, Santiago, Infante, VH, and German to overpay them so they avoid their first 2 arbitration years than on Neagle. Furthermore, Neagles $13 million in 2005 is $12.9 million more than he will be worth at the age of 38.

The Easley for Neagle trade straight up will kill us. I may like a Easley, Halter, and Young for Neagle and Juan Pierre.

[Dan Gilmore]

If we could package Easley w/o taking on someone else's problem, it would be great. I assume that DD spent a lot of time in the last year trying to do just that. All indications are that the market will be favoring the buyers (Teams) and that many free agents will sit around waiting for low offers or getting none. The exceptions will be the few true stars, but middle-of-the-road and role players should be a glut on the market. Why take on Easley's contract when you can get someone as good or better (and healthier) for 1.5 mil? So, unless we eat Neagle unwise contract, neither Colorado or any other team is going take Easley and his unwise contract. This might be our only chance to move him. I am not so high on Neagle, but think that he will be somewhat like Kile when he gets away from Coors. A 5.25 ERA playing at Coors should work out to 4.5 or better at Comerica. And I would rather Easley never played a game for us again.

[BigD]

If your gonna trade it doesn't make sense to have the Tigers trade for another second baseman. They can flip flop Santiago and Infante or play Jackson or Halter at that position. Getting a second baseman would give them the same problem they now have at Firstbase

[Biff Mayhem]

Originally posted by Ryan Dirt

Anybody willing to make the the 1-for-1 Easley for Neagle deal is nuts.

Our young pitching/catching staff would stand to gain more under the tutelage of Neagle than our young fielders/hitters would gain from Easley.

[jake]

OT, I swear I was just kidding.

[MotownRandy]

Why trade at all if your just trying to dump salaries?

Big D(wonder what that means?), it's not just a salary dump. We are taking the salary and moving it to a different position where it would be more useful, or at least less wasteful.

We don't need to sign any free agents Big D...you are missing the point. Neagle would allow us to free up the space Easley currently fills. Being a veteran lefthanded starter is an extra benefit...not a need of the team.

The Marlins are not going to take Damion Easley for anything. The Rockies are probably the only team willing to take him because of the way his numbers would likely inflate in Coors. Besides them, only a team desperate for a second baseman would need him, and that team does not exist.

Our young pitching/catching staff would stand to gain more under the tutelage of Neagle than our young fielders/hitters would gain from Easley.

Great point Biff. It's been said before, but this is the best way I've heard it stated so far.

[MotownRandy]

DENVER -- Colorado Rockies pitcher Denny Neagle isn't just agreeable to waiving the no-trade clause in his contract. He wants out.


"They need payroll flexibility, and I want to go to a place where I am more appreciated,'' Neagle said Thursday. "I know that I haven't lived up to my end of the bargain. But honestly, it hasn't worked out here for either of us, and it would be best for both parties if this marriage ended.''

Elarton hopes to stay
DENVER -- Pitcher Scott Elarton is hoping to stay with the Rockies next season, though he currently has no 2003 contract.


The Lamar native was sidelined by a shoulder injury soon after the Rockies acquired him in July 2000 in the deal that sent Pedro Astacio to the Astros. Last spring, doctors decided Elarton needed shoulder surgery and he didn't play.


The Rockies want to sign Elarton to a non-guaranteed deal rather than a contract. Elarton told the Rocky Mountain News on Thursday he expects to agree to terms to remain with the club.


"I don't want to play anywhere else,'' said Elarton, who was paid $1.4 million last season. "I like (manager) Clint (Hurdle). I like the doctors and the trainers. There's a good young core of guys.''


Elarton, the Astros' first-round draft choice in 1993, said he felt loyalty to the Rockies because of the way they dealt with his surgery.


"They have treated me very well throughout all of this,'' he said. "I think they got damaged goods when they traded for me. They didn't know it at the time. I didn't know it at the time. But the way it turned out, something was wrong. They've given me a chance to get healthy, and I'd like to be healthy for them.''
-- The Associated Press




Neagle said he would consider restructuring his contract through deferrals, if he gets sent to a desirable location. He prefers Chicago, New York or a city on the West Coast. The left-hander twice vetoed trades to the Detroit Tigers last summer.


Neagle, 34, has $37.5 million remaining on his contract, including $9 million in 2003.


The Rockies have tried to move Neagle for 11 months, but his big contract and performance have stifled offers.


Neagle signed a five-year, $51.5 million deal in December 2000, then turned in a 17-19 record with a 5.32 ERA.


He was demoted to the bullpen for seven weeks last season before returning after John Thomson was traded July 31 to the New York Mets. He rediscovered his changeup and was among the best pitchers in the National League for a month, until a left elbow injury set in.


Neagle said he had a small bone chip and some floating pieces removed during surgery a month ago and has resumed offseason workouts.


Trading Neagle or Mike Hampton, the other well-paid, under-performing starting pitcher the Rockies signed in 2000, would give the club much-needed payroll relief.


The Rockies are holding contracts for $40.5 million on five players with a payroll that is expected to cap around $51 million.


With no takers for Hampton or Neagle, the Rockies have held preliminary talks with Arizona about right fielder Larry Walker.


"I don't think that's something that can be blamed on me and Mike. Larry's name has been out there in trade rumors for the past couple of years,'' Neagle said.



http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1108/1457875.html

[Rob Jones]

Yech ... what a mess.

The whole point to getting Neagle would be for him to pitch well enough to make himself attractive to a contender at next year's trade deadline. But, now we read that he's just had elbow surgery. What are the chances that he'd pitch well for DET after that? This does sound like a huge risk. If he doesn't pitch well, the Tigers might just be saddled with $37 million of junk--something worse than the combined contracts of Easley ($14.3 m.), Palmer ($6 m.), Paquette ($4 m.), and Halter ($2.5 m.). Not good.

[jake]

That contract of Neagles is horrendous. Can't we just release these guys and start over??

[TigerCap]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1108/1457875.html
He twice rejected trades to Detroit last year.
IF he wanted to come here, would any of you want him?

[Rob Jones]

The most amazing thing about that contract is the $9 million buyout on the $12.5 million option for 2006. A $9 million buyout! Like, who's going to eat that?

I think Cashman, that genius in NY, is facing the same thing with Clemens, isn't he? Didn't the Yankees just pay Clemens $10 million for the privilege of not pitching for them next year?

[cedar]

TC, I think there is a thread in the Tigers forum talking about this. You may want to check that out for some opinions already posted.

[Cult of Guillen]

Originally posted by BigD
If your gonna trade it doesn't make sense to have the Tigers trade for another second baseman. They can flip flop Santiago and Infante or play Jackson or Halter at that position. Getting a second baseman would give them the same problem they now have at Firstbase

I totally disagree...we have candidates at 2B, but no one who has yet demonstrated that they deserve the job outright. Until that happens, we need to consider as many candidates as possible.

[berneree]

You must be really bored COP, you are the only one who is making posts. So I will join you.

I like Colorado's 2b, but we just have 2 many openings elsewhere. CF, 3b, Ca, SP. And Colorado has a CF named Pierre that is worth a 1-year tryout. If he attains a .370 OBP again, he would be a great catalyst.

Maybe we can get their 2b and Pierre along with Neagle in the trade. Again, nobody else in baseball will be running to Colorado wanting to pick up Neagle's contract. If they want to dump, we will wipe their a-- by taking Pierre and Ortiz off their hands.

[tigermojo]

Why would any team bail Colorado out of their bad contracts? The way I look at it is there is one less competitor for the championship.

[Cult of Guillen]

bern--I believe that Pierre is signed to a multi-year contract that nets him at least $3 million per season (it could be as high as $5 million).

I think he's too much risk based on that...he could become a Tom Goodwin/Andres Torres player and then we are stuck with another contract.

[ToledoTigerFan]

Given the rumors last year regarding "cash-flow" problems, the chance of the Tigers taking on more payroll seems very unlikely. Neagle sounds like one of those players whose production didn't just taper-off as he grew older, it dropped off a cliff.

[MotownRandy]

Given the rumors last year regarding "cash-flow" problems, the chance of the Tigers taking on more payroll seems very unlikely. Neagle sounds like one of those players whose production didn't just taper-off as he grew older, it dropped off a cliff.

Once again, I dont think the Tigers will be in the role of taking on payroll. This will be more of a trade of salary's than adding salary. There might be a little, but not significant enough to say they are adding payroll.

[djhutch]

Originally posted by Ryan Dirt
Anybody willing to make the the 1-for-1 Easley for Neagle deal is nuts.

I wouldn't have gone that far, until I saw your stats on how much Neagle is owed vs. how much Easley is owed. That extra $24 million could hurt us in the long run. However, Neagle would probably more tradeable to a contender at the break because he's a pitcher. But there's no guarantee someone would take him. That makes me think that there's no way this would be a 1-for-1 deal. DD would almost certainly want Pierre & have to give up someone else.

[MotownRandy]

The problem is, Pierre makes quite a bit of money too.

If Neagle still turns down the trade, something good could come out of this deal. Maybe all the talking will trigger a deal involving Juan Pierre going to the Tigers and Colorado taking Easley. I think that would be a good trade.