Trade Bondo [Archive] - MotownSports.com Message Board

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 03:57 PM

When you have a surplus of something and severe deficiencies in something then it's not brain surgery to figure out how you can fix that.

I'm not opposed to trading him. If it means a top offensive player under 30, go ahead.

I am with you on this one. I would only trade him if he gives a huge return and by huge I mean a star player under the age of 30 or if they can not lock him into a long term deal.

Otherwise they need to keep him and ride with him. He is only 23 people need to remember that.

Oblong

09-10-2006, 03:59 PM

It is hard to forget how young he is.

Who would you trade him for? It would be a short list. It'd have to include an All Star caliber position player. Depending on who it is, I'd want others tuff.

tigerkid23

09-10-2006, 04:05 PM

It is hard to forget how young he is.

Who would you trade him for? It would be a short list. It'd have to include an All Star caliber position player. Depending on who it is, I'd want others tuff.

Cabrera
Dunn
Reyes
Wright
Crawford maybe

Doubt you could get any of those guys though.

EDIT: Mark Teixiera as well.

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 04:17 PM

Cabrera
Dunn
Reyes
Wright
Crawford maybe

Doubt you could get any of those guys though.

EDIT: Mark Teixiera as well.

I like Dunn but it would likely take more than just him to get me to give up Bonderman after being convinced in that argument last time.

The list is likely around that though....

Cabrera
Pujols
Wright
Mauer
Morneau
Bay
Sizemore
Utley
Howard
Atkins

Perhaps Vernon Wells.... Perhaps Crawford...

Thats about it right now that I can think of.

tigerkid23

09-10-2006, 04:22 PM

Yeah, I didn't include the ones I'm 100% sure that won't be traded. Pujols, Howard, and other players within the divison (Morneau, Mauer, Sizemore, etc.).

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 04:24 PM

Yeah, I didn't include the ones I'm 100% sure that won't be traded. Pujols, Howard, and other players within the divison (Morneau, Mauer, Sizemore, etc.).

I would be 100% sure that Wright and Reyes are not being traded.

The ones in the division I agree. But thats about the list I would trade Bonderman for even now.

chasfh

09-10-2006, 04:24 PM

I vote against trading Jeremy Bonderman. The kid is going to be an ace. Not every great pitcher gets off to a great start. Look at the early-career struggles of Sandy Koufax, Don Sutton, Catfish Hunter, Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry and Early Wynn -- Hall of Famers all.

Nolan Ryan got traded away by the Mets at this very same point of his career. Do you want to see Bonderman have that kind of career for someone else?

Would you folks who want to get rid of him so quickly please think farther ahead than five minutes from now?

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 04:25 PM

Would you folks who want to get rid of him so quickly please think farther ahead than five minutes from now?

Pretty much the only way I want them to trade him is if they can not work out a deal to lock him in past his first couple years of free agency.

tigerkid23

09-10-2006, 04:25 PM

I would be 100% sure that Wright and Reyes are not being traded.

The ones in the division I agree. But thats about the list I would trade Bonderman for even now.

Well, I was like 99.9% sure, but the Mets need pitching, so I'm not exactly 100%. :lick:

thefunk

09-10-2006, 04:34 PM

Trade Bondo

shut up.

Casimir

09-10-2006, 04:41 PM

I vote against trading Jeremy Bonderman. The kid is going to be an ace. Not every great pitcher gets off to a great start. Look at the early-career struggles of Sandy Koufax, Don Sutton, Catfish Hunter, Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry and Early Wynn -- Hall of Famers all.

Nolan Ryan got traded away by the Mets at this very same point of his career. Do you want to see Bonderman have that kind of career for someone else?

I'm not against trading him. I just expect an awful lot in return because of what you, I, and others see as potential future.

Would you folks who want to get rid of him so quickly please think farther ahead than five minutes from now?

Its more fun to run around the Tigers forum yelling that the sky is falling. Don't you know that?

RedTeamGo!

09-10-2006, 04:48 PM

I don't understand all the bonderman is untouchable stuff...his ERA isn't even good and he is a headcase. Right now if you offered me Bondo for Dunn straight up I would laugh at you.

DaYooperASBDT

09-10-2006, 04:49 PM

Why trade for a hitter? Why not sign some as free agents this winter? Just wondering.

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Why trade for a hitter? Why not sign some as free agents this winter? Just wondering.

Not really any good ones.

chasfh

09-10-2006, 04:59 PM

I don't understand all the bonderman is untouchable stuff...his ERA isn't even good and he is a headcase.

What proof do you have that Bonderman is a "headcase"?

DaYooperASBDT

09-10-2006, 05:04 PM

Not really any good ones.

We might disagree on these, but aren't Soriano and Lugo available?

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 05:07 PM

What proof do you have that Bonderman is a "headcase"?
I look at Verlander and then look at Bonderman. Which guy falls apart after an error, or when runners get on base? Which guy is in his 4th year in the big leagues and which is in his first? I know, he's still 23 and all that stuff, but I haven't noticed as much progress in these areas with him as I would have hoped.

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 05:12 PM

We might disagree on these, but aren't Soriano and Lugo available?

Soriano is not good for what he will cost. .282/.326/.515 is good but is it worth the 7 years 15 million a year?

Lugo was good for the Rays for this season. Is he going to continue to be good? .277/.341/.404 for his career is he going to cost what he is worth though?

chasfh

09-10-2006, 05:17 PM

I look at Verlander and then look at Bonderman. Which guy falls apart after an error, or when runners get on base? Which guy is in his 4th year in the big leagues and which is in his first? I know, he's still 23 and all that stuff, but I haven't noticed as much progress in these areas with him as I would have hoped.

How is this proof that Bonderman is a "headcase"? Even allowing that there is a marked difference between Verlander's performance after an error or with runners on base and Bonderman's, how can you conclusively attribute this to Jeremy Bonderman's mental state? How do you know that Bonderman did not face a tougher class of hitters in these circumstances than Verlander, or that it's not random chance?

DaYooperASBDT

09-10-2006, 05:30 PM

Soriano is not good for what he will cost. .282/.326/.515 is good but is it worth the 7 years 15 million a year?

Lugo was good for the Rays for this season. Is he going to continue to be good? .277/.341/.404 for his career is he going to cost what he is worth though?

After what I've seen from this offense of late, I think Mike should overpay both of those guys significantly! :wink:

DaYooperASBDT

09-10-2006, 05:32 PM

Bonderman doesn't have any "intangibles" !!! :cheeky:

laverty

09-10-2006, 05:36 PM

shut up.
For some real hitters! That better?:wink:

Tyrus

09-10-2006, 05:45 PM

I wouldn't quite call Bonderman a head case, but his problems do mostly seem to be mental.

As Jim Price was pointing out on the radio today, Bonderman fluxuates from breaking off a sharp, unhittable pitch to throwing a lollypop the very next pitch. I know Price is goofy, but I agree with him that Bonderman's issues seem to be mental, since his stuff is as nuclear as ever.

Remember last year, when he was always giving up runs in the first inning? That's a mental thing. We witnessed two complete mental breakdowns this year: The game in Minnesota, and the 6-0 lead he blew against the Rangers.

The good news is, I think Jeremy can defeat these mental demons, because he still is very young and immature. From what I can see, he lets things bother him too much, and he flies apart out there. Eventually, he should be able to get control of his emotions, and, when that happens, look out.

NEWT 4 PREZ

09-10-2006, 05:58 PM

bonderman is the classic example of a young kid that was rushed to the big leagues way too early, before he had a chance to mentally develop into an adult. by being thrust to the pinacle his growth in that area was stunted, this is where his "mental toughness" problems come from.

we can thank trammell for that, he should have been at AA in 2003.

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 06:01 PM

How is this proof that Bonderman is a "headcase"? Even allowing that there is a marked difference between Verlander's performance after an error or with runners on base and Bonderman's, how can you conclusively attribute this to Jeremy Bonderman's mental state? How do you know that Bonderman did not face a tougher class of hitters in these circumstances than Verlander, or that it's not random chance?
The law of averages.

RedTeamGo!

09-10-2006, 06:03 PM

What proof do you have that Bonderman is a "headcase"?

I have been watching Bonderman since he was 20 with the Tigers 4 years ago and would say I watch about 15-20 of his starts a season. I have def. noticed that when things are going right he is like a piece of iron, he is unhittable. But once he has that error or 2 run homer off the 9th hitter you will see him give up 4-5 runs faster than you can say the word "bondo-mania." I like bondo, he is a tough mofo, but if you havent noticed that when something goes wrong he looks like he is about to cry and throw a temper tantrum you arent watching the same player as I am.

Chaz

09-10-2006, 06:05 PM

didn't we trade away Smoltz for Wells years ago? look how that turned out.. yes we won a WS with Wells, but how many other teams have also won with him?

wolverinefan

09-10-2006, 06:06 PM

NEWT, Bonderman was one of the Tigers best choices at the time. That year made him grow up some. While I agree he was rushed, not much else they could do.

RedTeamGo!

09-10-2006, 06:08 PM

didn't we trade away Smoltz for Wells years ago? look how that turned out.. yes we won a WS with Wells, but how many other teams have also won with him?

what? I think you mean Doyle Alexander and they didnt win the world series with him.

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 06:10 PM

didn't we trade away Smoltz for Wells years ago? look how that turned out.. yes we won a WS with Wells, but how many other teams have also won with him?
No, they traded Smoltz for Doyle Alexander, he went 9-0 in 1987 and carried the Tigers on his back to the Pennant. The Tigers lost in the AL playoffs to the Twins though.

This is a slightly different situation though, they wouldn't be making a deadline deal, and they wouldn't be getting a 38 year old pitcher at the end of his career. This would be for a 26 year old, gold glove winning, power hitting left handed bat, who shows patience at the plate to play a position of need for the Tigers, and trading from a position of apparent surplus.

DaYooperASBDT

09-10-2006, 06:13 PM

Man, where would this team be without Kenny Rogers? About .500 if they got lucky?

Chaz

09-10-2006, 06:13 PM

my bad... sorry...

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 06:17 PM

Man, where would this team be without Kenny Rogers? About .500 if they got lucky?
Well, I've had the thought lately, that they should run Kenny Rogers out there every 4th day to get into the playoffs, the guy has been tremendous lately, and I don't think he would have a problem with fatique with his pitching style.

DaYooperASBDT

09-10-2006, 06:26 PM

Good thought, but if the boys don't start hitting, they will need more than an extra start or two from Rogers.

chasfh

09-10-2006, 06:38 PM

The law of averages.

The law of averages is not an unbreakable law of physics. If you flip a coin 162 times in 50,000 separate sessions, you will get from as many as 109 heads to as few as 54, whereas the law of averages would suggest that you would get 81 heads every time. So this answer is not conclusive.

I have been watching Bonderman since he was 20 with the Tigers 4 years ago and would say I watch about 15-20 of his starts a season. I have def. noticed that when things are going right he is like a piece of iron, he is unhittable. But once he has that error or 2 run homer off the 9th hitter you will see him give up 4-5 runs faster than you can say the word "bondo-mania." I like bondo, he is a tough mofo, but if you havent noticed that when something goes wrong he looks like he is about to cry and throw a temper tantrum you arent watching the same player as I am.

Your observation of his facial expressions on television isn't enough to make conclusive statements about his mental state. You can speculate that there might be something there -- and I might be inclined to agree with you -- but I think you're taking a mighty leap to conclude that he is a "headcase". We have absolutely no idea what his mental state is, because none of us interface with him on a regular basis. That's my point.

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 06:53 PM

The law of averages is not an unbreakable law of physics. If you flip a coin 162 times in 50,000 separate sessions, you will get from as many as 109 heads to as few as 54, whereas the law of averages would suggest that you would get 81 heads every time. So this answer is not conclusive.

It's conclusive, in that it is what I used to justify the logic in the comparison between Verlander and Bonderman and the differences between the two. I've also come to this conclusion based on observation between the two pitchers, . If you don't observe these trends while watching Bonderman and Verlander pitch, that's just fine, I do.

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 06:55 PM

Good thought, but if the boys don't start hitting, they will need more than an extra start or two from Rogers.
The Team hits better for Rogers too though.

DrWho17

09-10-2006, 07:10 PM

Soriano is not good for what he will cost. .282/.326/.515 is good but is it worth the 7 years 15 million a year?

Lugo was good for the Rays for this season. Is he going to continue to be good? .277/.341/.404 for his career is he going to cost what he is worth though?
Carlos Lee/Barry Bonds/Jim Edmonds/Garciaparra/Mike Piazza/Gary Sheffield are all guys that could help as well, until the farm system starts producing some decent position prospects.

pyrotigers

09-10-2006, 07:18 PM

Vernon Wells supposedly wants out of Toronto....

Sandlot

09-10-2006, 07:40 PM

Can someone tell Jeremy to smile once in a while. This guy with his skinhead, kind-of-like a NEO...something.....just does not smile.... ever....and never seems to be happy. He's only 23 for cripes sake!

I watch him pitch and it seems like agony every time he goes out there....

Jeremy,..... camping, pickup trucks, fishing & hunting are all great...but please... give us something more when it comes to pitching.

Geezzzz...Relax...and smile once in a while.

estrepe1

09-10-2006, 07:46 PM

Carlos Lee/Barry Bonds/Jim Edmonds/Garciaparra/Mike Piazza/Gary Sheffield are all guys that could help as well, until the farm system starts producing some decent position prospects.

Frank Thomas too. Heck why not offer some of those guys like Bonds/Edmonds/Thomas etc a 1 or 2 year deal like we did with White/Sanders and see if we can't pull in one of those big aging bats?

chasfh

09-10-2006, 07:53 PM

It's conclusive, in that it is what I used to justify the logic in the comparison between Verlander and Bonderman and the differences between the two. I've also come to this conclusion based on observation between the two pitchers, . If you don't observe these trends while watching Bonderman and Verlander pitch, that's just fine, I do.

And that's OK, you can conclude that if you wish -- as long as you acknowledge that it is a guess and an opinion, and not fact. Because facts are borne out by at minimum a significant preponderance of incontrovertible data, while guesses and opinions may be borne out by casual and occasional personal observation.

tiger337

09-10-2006, 07:56 PM

tiger337

09-10-2006, 07:59 PM

I have been watching Bonderman since he was 20 with the Tigers 4 years ago and would say I watch about 15-20 of his starts a season. I have def. noticed that when things are going right he is like a piece of iron, he is unhittable. But once he has that error or 2 run homer off the 9th hitter you will see him give up 4-5 runs faster than you can say the word "bondo-mania." I like bondo, he is a tough mofo, but if you havent noticed that when something goes wrong he looks like he is about to cry and throw a temper tantrum you arent watching the same player as I am.

You mean like Jack Morris?

sportz4life

09-11-2006, 11:38 AM

Love this thread...been saying the same thing about Bondo for weeks...seems mentally weak in the crucial situations that separate a winner form a loser on the mound. Verlander seems to have it, Bondo doesn't. With his contract status now a factor trading him is mandatory consideration. The best and most obtainable players would be Dunn and Crawford.

People have to be realistic on what's really available and what a pitcher 2 years from FA will bring. Dunn may be a slight underachievement but a good representation of what the Tigers need, notwithstanding his horrible BA/WRISP.

Crawford would take a package, so be prepared to include either Grandy, Inge or Sanchez with him and get back a talented yet, underachieving prospect from Tampa...Grandy and Bondo for Crawford and Upton is not impossible, Upton has been a majotr disappointment in his call up check his numbers... Dukes would also be someone who may be available...think outside the box...we need some hitting and we have an overabundance of qualified starters. Guys remember this, Nate or Maroth will not bring Dunn or Crawford, no way, no how!!! Blalock and Teixerra whould also be explored. Time for DD to get creative.

pyrotigers

09-11-2006, 11:39 AM

I wouldn't touch Jim Edmonds and his post concussion syndrome/falling numbers combination with a ten foot pole, but some of those other veteran guys would definitely be worth a shot.

Microline133

09-11-2006, 11:50 AM

Grandy and Bondo for Crawford and Upton
You're serious? I feel pretty safe in saying the Tigers would get laughed off the phone at the mere suggestion of this deal. Upton may be a "disappointment" since his callup, but they're hardly ready to deal him. He is still considered a cornerstone of their future....and a weak couple of months in his first extended exposure to the big leagues, while playing a new position, isn't going to change that fact.

tiger337

09-11-2006, 12:01 PM

Why does everyone think that Crawford is available?

DrWho17

09-11-2006, 12:13 PM

Why does everyone think that Crawford is available?
Free Agency approaching for him (same as Bonderman though), and highly touted outfield prospects in their system making an outfielder available, and Baldelli has a long term deal already signed, he's not moving.

DrWho17

09-11-2006, 12:15 PM

Would love to trade with Tampa though, if you can't get something good from the NL. No chance of players on that team coming back to haunt you in the playoffs really.

tiger337

09-11-2006, 12:22 PM

estrepe1

09-11-2006, 12:23 PM

There is no way that Upton is available. Now we are just getting crazy.

Microline133

09-11-2006, 12:35 PM

Mark, what are your thoughts on Bonderman? From a sabermetric perspective, all his ratios (walks, strike outs, home runs, ground balls) are outstanding but his LOB% is not good because of the big innings he allows. His track record is very good for his age.

From a scouting standpoint, He has two outstanding pitches but lacks a change-up. Or at least, he seems to shy away from it every year and after trying it early in the season. There is also some thought that he lacks maturity but he's just 23 so I see that as less of a problem than the lack of a third pitch. I'm still high on him but I realize he has things to work on. Do you think he'll ever learn the change-up? How much to you expect him to improve as a pitcher?
I actually just wrote an article for TigsTown (it'll be going up this afternoon) about rethinking Bonderman's ceiling. Rather than a future ace....I'm seriously beginning to consider the idea that we may have "merely" a good #2/3 starter on our hands...and not a future ace. That's not a bad thing...just far more realistic given his trends and overall abilities.

tiger337

09-11-2006, 12:39 PM

I actually just wrote an article for TigsTown (it'll be going up this afternoon) about rethinking Bonderman's ceiling. Rather than a future ace....I'm seriously beginning to consider the idea that we may have "merely" a good #2/3 starter on our hands...and not a future ace. That's not a bad thing...just far more realistic given his trends and overall abilities.

I would not be disappointed if he had a career as a "#2 or #3 starter". I still think he can be an ace but I certainly wouldn't consider him a failure if he didn't reach that status.

Microline133

09-11-2006, 12:40 PM

I think there are some very significant obstacles to him becoming an ace....and I'll be very shocked if he develops into one. Leave that role to Verlander, and let Bonderman settle in behind him.

sabretooth

09-11-2006, 01:01 PM

I actually just wrote an article for TigsTown (it'll be going up this afternoon) about rethinking Bonderman's ceiling. Rather than a future ace....I'm seriously beginning to consider the idea that we may have "merely" a good #2/3 starter on our hands...and not a future ace. That's not a bad thing...just far more realistic given his trends and overall abilities.

This has been my thinking for about a year now. Might be an ace, might be Dan Petry. Prefer to see the former, but I'll settle for the latter case.

As far as those who suggest trading him now are concerned: NUTS! "Buy low, sell high." Doesn't work in this case, does it????

cruzer1

09-11-2006, 01:05 PM

He has much better stuff than Petry. I think Bonderman will have a very similar career to Dave Stieb, who had similar stuff.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stiebda01.shtml

sabretooth

09-11-2006, 01:12 PM

He has much better stuff than Petry. I think Bonderman will have a very similar career to Dave Stieb, who had similar stuff.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stiebda01.shtml

He was the "ace" version of Bondo that I was thinking of. Absolutely the same stuff, I agree 100%.

tiger337

09-11-2006, 01:13 PM

He has much better stuff than Petry. I think Bonderman will have a very similar career to Dave Stieb, who had similar stuff.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stiebda01.shtml

That's an interesting comparison when you consider that Steib had problem's with "make-up" as Bonderman is said to have. Steib was always a hot head. A great pitcher though.

sabretooth

09-11-2006, 01:17 PM

That's an interesting comparison when you consider that Steib had problem's with "make-up" as Bonderman is said to have. Steib was always a hot head. A great pitcher though.

Good point, that was the other reason that I thought of Stieb. Like many others here, I can see Bondo start to pitch differently when something bad happens behind him. Correcting that and spotting a change-up would do him wonders.

tiger337

09-11-2006, 01:24 PM

Who is going to be Jimmy Key?

cruzer1

09-11-2006, 01:26 PM

Who is going to be Jimmy Key?
Kenny, Maroth...:classic:

DaYooperASBDT

09-11-2006, 04:37 PM

Why does everyone think that Crawford is available?

But, is he untouchable? Goodness knows Tampa needs some pitching.

Casimir

09-11-2006, 09:22 PM

As far as those who suggest trading him now are concerned: NUTS! "Buy low, sell high." Doesn't work in this case, does it????

Are they looking more at Bonderman's salary and using "cost efficiency" as a basis for selling him at percieved high value?