Bench Casey, Play Shelton!

[sabretooth]

What does Casey have to do to get some time off? He's had 2 singles in September so far and 2 walks, that's his entire output for his last 30 plate appearances. Horrendous! Even Perez can do that.

The irony is that Shelton was way better in July (.286 BA, .730 OPS), which was the month that caused his demotion, as compared to Casey so far overall with the Tigers (.235 BA, .594 OPS). But Casey keeps his job, even as the Tigers offense is struggling to score 4 runs a game.

Put Shelton out there for a game or two and see if he can catch fire.

[Casimir]

What does Casey have to do to get some time off? He's had 2 singles in September so far and 2 walks, that's his entire output for his last 30 plate appearances. Horrendous! Even Perez can do that.

The irony is that Shelton was way better in July (.286 BA, .730 OPS), which was the month that caused his demotion, as compared to Casey so far overall with the Tigers (.235 BA, .594 OPS). But Casey keeps his job, even as the Tigers offense is struggling to score 4 runs a game.

Put Shelton out there for a game or two and see if he can catch fire.

Agreed. I don't have a problem with the trade that was made, but its just not working out the way that it was thought it would. I expect Shelton in there against Santana, but I'd like to get him out of there tonight as well, let him 3 days out of it to get his head straight or whatever. I'm guessing the guy is pressing, trying to justify himself as the big acquisition a little too much. Just a hunch.

At the same time, while getting Casey out, I just want to give Shelton some ABs. I wonder if/how he fits into the playoff roster? If so, I don't want him rotting on the bench through September and then start the playoffs.

[eastside billee]

I tend to agree.

[Domino]

It is time for Shelton to have a chance. Not necessarily Bench Casey for good, but give Shelton a couple games here.

[Big Toe]

I agree with this.

That said, watch Leyland toss Shelton out there against Santana after no at bats for almost a week. When he doesn't produce it'll be obvious we need to put Casey back in there.

What would Casey's OBP be if you subtracted the outs he creates via double plays? And if you factor in how much less likely he is to score than average because of his speed, how valuable is that OBP? The guy isn't a useful ballplayer.

[DrWho17]

Well, I think Leyland has to show more consistancy in his approach. He's sticking with these non producers, who are "his guys", while treating other players differently. Casey/Perez have to sit, the Tigers are getting no production out of these guys at this time, especially after the situations we have seen this year, with Shelton getting sent down, Spurling being banished, and Young getting fired all supposedly for production reasons.

[Truth]

Well, I think Leyland has to show more consistancy in his approach. He's sticking with these non producers, who are "his guys", while treating other players differently. Casey/Perez have to sit, the Tigers are getting no production out of these guys at this time, especially after the situations we have seen this year, with Shelton getting sent down, Spurling being banished, and Young getting fired all supposedly for production reasons.

I think he's completely consistent. He doesn't over estimate a slump or a streak. He understands that the one thing a player has complete and total control of is effort and attitude and he doesn't cut many breaks for the guy who slumps with either. He knows that confidence and mental toughness are a large part of success and he creates and gives guys every opportunity to succeed before pulling the plug.

Without any of these things, the Tigers wouldn't be in first place in September.

[Yoda]

Right now Casey is in a massive slump. Eventually he's going to break out of it and hit probably about what Shelton would hit (remember, he's not very good anymore either). You can't just keep benching guys every week. Eventually you have to set your regulars and stick with it. The playoffs start in just a few weeks. I think he's counting oh Shawn to break out of this slump and start helping them. Based on the way he handled Jones, who everyone also said should be benched, he may be right.

This isn't some senile old man that only plays "his players". Sometimes the guy does have a strategy in mind. I'm not saying he's right, but that's what I think his intentions are.

[Casimir]

Right now Casey is in a massive slump. Eventually he's going to break out of it and hit probably about what Shelton would hit (remember, he's not very good anymore either). You can't just keep benching guys every week. Eventually you have to set your regulars and stick with it. The playoffs start in just a few weeks. I think he's counting oh Shawn to break out of this slump and start helping them. Based on the way he handled Jones, who everyone also said should be benched, he may be right.

This isn't some senile old man that only plays "his players". Sometimes the guy does have a strategy in mind. I'm not saying he's right, but that's what I think his intentions are.

True. I'm not suggesting playing Shelton ahead of him from here on out. I just wonder whether Casey may benefit from a mental break, and I want Shelton to get some ABs at some point. This seems like a good spot to accomplish both (assuming that I'm right about Casey, which I agree with everyone saying to themselves while reading this that I have no idea of knowing for sure and its just purely speculation at best on my part).

[estrepe1]

I posted that Casey had been no better than Shelton a while back... it was true then and it is even more true now.

Put Shelton out there for a game or two see what he can do....

[sabretooth]

Right now Casey is in a massive slump. Eventually he's going to break out of it and hit probably about what Shelton would hit (remember, he's not very good anymore either). You can't just keep benching guys every week. Eventually you have to set your regulars and stick with it. The playoffs start in just a few weeks. I think he's counting oh Shawn to break out of this slump and start helping them. Based on the way he handled Jones, who everyone also said should be benched, he may be right.

This isn't some senile old man that only plays "his players". Sometimes the guy does have a strategy in mind. I'm not saying he's right, but that's what I think his intentions are.

Senile or not, playing Casey over Shelton at this point just doesn't make sense. The more that I think about it the less sense it makes. Perhaps Casey should play against some RHP that he's tuned to hit against, but Shelton has been better from top-to-bottom since his July 2005 call-up, and Casey's done nothing to disprove this.

Casey in August had his best full month this year -- but he was STILL WORSE than Shelton was in July, which is supposedly what got Shelton demoted.

Shelton might not outproduce Casey for the last 20 games, but I think that it's pretty clear that Shelton would not do any worse than Casey.

Shelton and Casey were neck-and-neck in production from May through July. Shelton still has waayyy better overall numbers than Casey since his 2005 call-up and has a much, much higher up-side.

Shelton is clearly a superior defensive first baseman and a better baserunner than Casey (for what that's worth).

What have we got to lose by playing Shelton over Casey? Probably nothing. Conversely, by not playing Shelton, we potentially lose a comeback month where he'd beat the pants off of Casey.

[apabruce]

I didn't see Casey play in his younger days - in what way was he different? When I look at the shift the Twins put on him, I think he has to place the ball perfectly to get a hit. He is so slow, I think the right fielder could throw him out at first on a sharp one hop liner. He is the only player I have ever seen that makes Ordonez and Shelton look quick.

I also would like to see Shelton play more. However, I have to agree with Yoda. I tend to think Leyland knows more than I do. He may not always be right, especially with the clear bright light of hindsight, but I believe he has sound reasons for what he does.

[Yoda]

Sabre - so basically Shelton has a chance to come back, but Casey doesn't. No offense, I respect you a lot, but that's jsut being stubborn.

Casey's OPS on the season is .719. Pretty bad. However, Shelton's was .703 in May and .642 in June. It isn't like it would be impossible for Casey to outperform Shelton over the course of a month, because he's done it a couple times already this season.

I wouldn't mind at all if Shelton was playing. But it's stupid to just assume Shelton is going to be better and that there's no chance of Casey being the better hitter. Let's not act as if Shelton isn't capible of being an absolutely dreadful hitter. Because he is.

[tiger337]

Right now Casey is in a massive slump. Eventually he's going to break out of it and hit probably about what Shelton would hit (remember, he's not very good anymore either).



If you think he will hit the same as Shelton would hit, why not just put Shelton in there right now?

Based on the way he handled Jones, who everyone also said should be benched, he may be right.



This is just a pet peeve of mine but everybody praises Leyland for his handling of Jones when he handled it the same way most managers would. Jones was not blowing many saves and usually blowing saves is the only way a closer loses his job. Trammell stuck with Percival last year when he was struggling too. He only lost his job when he got hurt.

[tiger337]

Casey had a lower OPS than Carlos Pena in 2002, 2003 and 2005.

[Yoda]

If you think he will hit the same as Shelton would hit, why not just put Shelton in there right now?

Why are you asking me? All I'm saying is that it isn't predetermined that Casey is going to be worse. And I also gave examples of Casey being better. There are reasons for both players to be playing, and even more reasons for neither. I don't think it'll make much difference either way.

[tiger337]

Casey's OPS on the season is .719. Pretty bad. However, Shelton's was .703 in May and .642 in June. It isn't like it would be impossible for Casey to outperform Shelton over the course of a month, because he's done it a couple times already this season.



In other words, Shelton sucks in his worst months more than Casey sucks all the time?

[Yoda]

Casey had a lower OPS than Carlos Pena in 2002, 2003 and 2005.

But we don't have Carlos Pena.

[tiger337]

But we don't have Carlos Pena.

I'm just illustrating how overrated Casey is.

[Yoda]

I'm just illustrating how overrated Casey is.

Who's overrating him? The guy is a poor baseball player.

[DET Mr Malefic]

I posted that Casey had been no better than Shelton a while back... it was true then and it is even more true now.

Put Shelton out there for a game or two see what he can do....

Co-sign.


Agreed. I don't have a problem with the trade that was made, but its just not working out the way that it was thought it would.

Co-sign.

[Beantown Marty]

In other words, Shelton sucks in his worst months more than Casey sucks all the time?
Excellent.

[Yoda]

In other words, Shelton sucks in his worst months more than Casey sucks all the time?

I was obviously pointing out that Shelton has the ability to be worse than Casey, something deemed impossible by Sabretooth.

Shelton might not outproduce Casey for the last 20 games, but I think that it's pretty clear that Shelton would not do any worse than Casey.

[tiger337]

Who's overrating him? The guy is a poor baseball player.

which means that he should not be kept in the line-up just because he's bound to break out of his slump at some point. It's not like Ordonez where you want to keep him in there because he's a great hitter once he breaks out (which he seems to be doing now). If Thames was struggling as Casey is, he would certainly be benched for at least a couple games. I don't know why Casey should be handled any differently.

[ErieTigerFan]

One could argue the merit of both Casey and Shelton, but I think one has to consider when (and possibly the "why") Shelton was sent back to Toledo: he commited a costly error in the Twins game that Bonderman was cruising in until it all fell apart (who could forget that debacle?).
Shelton has been a streaky player at best. Sure, he could come in and just light things up, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Casey, on the other hand, has commited ZERO errors at 1st base in the past 2 seasons, and whiffs very infrequently (12 times in 119 AB for Detroit), while Shelton has fanned 98 times in 356 plate appearances.
Shelton definitely hits for more power, but Casey consistently gets wood on the ball. His defensive prowess (who said he "sucks" in the field???) and his ability to get the bat on the ball keep him in there. That, and the fact that he is actually better against lefties than righties (.296 vs. .265), where with Shelton it is pretty much a wash (.286 and .272 respectively).

[tiger337]

Just because Casey has made no errors, does not make him a good fielder. I don't think he's a bad fielder but he doesn't seem to have a lot of range. I'm also not very impressed with his scoops on low throws to first. I don't see a big difference between Casey and Shelton defensively. I don't believe Shelton was demoted because of the error. He was demoted because he was slumping. Now his replacement is slumping even worse.

I don't care about the strike outs. Casey's weak grounders and pop ups are no better than Shelton's strike outs. Casey doesn't necessarily have to be permanently benched. I'd just like to see Shelton play a few games and see if he can do something. Casey is not a good enough hitter to keep playing every day when he goes into a massive slump.

[dt35456884]

One could argue the merit of both Casey and Shelton, but I think one has to consider when (and possibly the "why") Shelton was sent back to Toledo: he commited a costly error in the Twins game that Bonderman was cruising in until it all fell apart (who could forget that debacle?).

This gets back to the Neifi/Infante argument of a few weeks ago. What's worse? A good player making a gaffe in the field from time to time that everybody notices, or a guy who just lulls you to sleep with his flat-out awfulness, day in an day out? Casey's woeful production at the plate is costing us games. Just because he hasn't made a "costly error" late in the game doesn't mean he hasn't hurt the team.

Shelton has been a streaky player at best. Sure, he could come in and just light things up, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Streaky is better than bad.

Casey, on the other hand, has commited ZERO errors at 1st base in the past 2 seasons, and whiffs very infrequently (12 times in 119 AB for Detroit), while Shelton has fanned 98 times in 356 plate appearances.

Errors and strikeouts are very poor ways to judge a player's value.

Shelton definitely hits for more power, but Casey consistently gets wood on the ball. His defensive prowess (who said he "sucks" in the field???) and his ability to get the bat on the ball keep him in there. That, and the fact that he is actually better against lefties than righties (.296 vs. .265), where with Shelton it is pretty much a wash (.286 and .272 respectively).

Again, batting average doesn't come close to telling the whole story. And "consistently getting wood on the ball" is useless if you're making outs all the time. For instance, Neifi puts the ball in play most of the time. But weak groundouts and pop-ups don't help the team.

I guess I haven't seen Casey's "defensive prowess" that you speak of.

Something else that's worth repeating is another thing I brought up during the Neifi arguments. Sean Casey left the worst division in the worst league in baseball to come to the best division in the best league in baseball. And I think we can all agree that the talent disparity between leagues is a very tangible thing, moreso than it has been in many years (just look at interleague play). Again, it's not the same as a call-up from Triple-A to the big leagues, but I think the difference in the level of competition Casey is now facing is a very real thing. Given that, he was probably never likely to even match the pedestrian numbers he put up in Pittsburgh.

One last thing. Trade-deadline deals are meant to be a quick pick-me-up for a team in a pennant race. Being that you've only got the guy for a tiny window of time (two months), the whole idea is to catch lightning in a bottle for the final stretch. It does us no good to try to ride out a month-long (or longer) slump when we've only got Casey for a short amount of time. That completely defeats the purpose of a late season acquisition.

The time is now to cut our losses. Leyland needs to swallow his pride and play the better player: Chris Shelton.

[Casimir]

Casey, on the other hand, has commited ZERO errors at 1st base in the past 2 seasons, and whiffs very infrequently (12 times in 119 AB for Detroit), while Shelton has fanned 98 times in 356 plate appearances.
Shelton definitely hits for more power, but Casey consistently gets wood on the ball. His defensive prowess (who said he "sucks" in the field???) and his ability to get the bat on the ball keep him in there. That, and the fact that he is actually better against lefties than righties (.296 vs. .265), where with Shelton it is pretty much a wash (.286 and .272 respectively).

As far as whiffing is concerned, I'd rather take a Shelton K with a runner on 1st as opposed to your normal Casey GIDP with a runner on 1st. I don't know why its a difficlut concept to grasp, but for whatever reason, it is. The best strategy in my mind when Casey's at bat with a runner on 1st and less than 2 outs is to put the runner in motion.

Anybody got any range factors for the 2? I have a hard believing Casey gets to more balls than Shelton does.

[AlKalineIsGod]

I posted that Casey had been no better than Shelton a while back... it was true then and it is even more true now.

Put Shelton out there for a game or two see what he can do....


I agree

[sabretooth]

As far as whiffing is concerned, I'd rather take a Shelton K with a runner on 1st as opposed to your normal Casey GIDP with a runner on 1st. I don't know why its a difficlut concept to grasp, but for whatever reason, it is. The best strategy in my mind when Casey's at bat with a runner on 1st and less than 2 outs is to put the runner in motion.

Anybody got any range factors for the 2? I have a hard believing Casey gets to more balls than Shelton does.

It's not even close.

Shelton: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5885&context=fielding

Casey: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3769&context=fielding

Shelton gets to way, way more balls than Casey does, has the same fielding percentage, and a much higher ZR.

At the time he was demoted, Shelton had the best all-around defensive stats at First Base (without any question) in baseball.

When Shelton was demoted, he was not producing offensively and JL didn't like his approach to hitting. I basically saw the wisdom of the move at the time -- perhaps this is what Shelton needed to get his old hitting form back, maybe Casey would be the "right" kind of hitter for our lineup, etc. But it just has not worked out well at all for us.

Looking back, to gain some context, Casey had a really tremendous 2004 season (age 29), but he has been a pretty mediocre hitter since the beginning of 2005. This year, Casey has been pretty awful offensively for a First Baseman. I don't know if Casey is in decline, but he's not been hitting well enough to command a starting job for about 2 years now.

I'm not saying that Shelton necessarily would have performed far better than Casey, but I don't see how anyone could say that Shelton would have performed any worse than Casey has as a Tiger.

All of the facts, taken in context, should lead to one conclusion IMHO: Casey should be out of the regular lineup in favor of Shelton.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Casey will start hitting again eventually, but I would like to see Shelton get some at-bats. It was pointless to call him up, then only give him two at-bats. Might as well have had him finish the season in AAA if you aren't going to play him.

[sabretooth]

Sabre - so basically Shelton has a chance to come back, but Casey doesn't. No offense, I respect you a lot, but that's jsut being stubborn.

Even if we knew that Casey would "come back" from his slump, he would be coming back to a level of performance that Shelton could easily eclipse if he was hitting decently.

My point is that Casey at his best this year has been only somewhat better than Shelton at his worst. It was nice to have Casey as a stopgap, but he just doesn't seem capable at this point in his career of providing the level of performance at First Base that we need.

OTOH, Shelton has clearly demonstrated that capability to provide the offense we need -- he has shown this over his entire professional career, his mega-slump this season notwithstanding. I'm not discounting the possibility that Shelton might have collapsed as a professional hitter, but I would not close the books on him yet, especially when we need more than what we can reasonably expect to get out of Sean Casey at this point, and when Shelton has shown the ability to deliver that his entire career, and even this year.

Casey's OPS on the season is .719. Pretty bad. However, Shelton's was .703 in May and .642 in June. It isn't like it would be impossible for Casey to outperform Shelton over the course of a month, because he's done it a couple times already this season.

Of course it's not impossible that Casey could outhit Shelton, but it seems unlikely, given Casey's performance level so far this year as a starter.

I wouldn't mind at all if Shelton was playing. But it's stupid to just assume Shelton is going to be better and that there's no chance of Casey being the better hitter. Let's not act as if Shelton isn't capible of being an absolutely dreadful hitter. Because he is.

I haven't assumed anything. I'm just pointing out that Casey this season has failed as a starter to hit anywhere in Shelton's league. Casey has been in seeming decline as a hitter since the end of 2004.

Casey might recover his old stroke again, but that seems less likely than a younger player simply getting back on track. It's like saying that I trust that Grandy is currently a better choice in CF than Juan Pierre, even if Grandy is slumping badly at the plate.

In my opinion, to conclude from Shelton's mega-slump this year that he just "is a dreadful hitter" seems like hyperbole. And to say that Shelton's April/June slump makes Casey the better option, especially given how poorly Casey has hit this entire season as a starter (and particularly as a Tiger), really doesn't make sense to me.

In short, where's the clear advantage to sticking with Casey at this point?

I understand being pessimistic about Shelton regaining his form at this particular juncture, but it seems sensible given Casey's crappiness to at least try Shelton out for a game or three. It's worth a shot, at least.

[sabretooth]

One could argue the merit of both Casey and Shelton, but I think one has to consider when (and possibly the "why") Shelton was sent back to Toledo: he commited a costly error in the Twins game that Bonderman was cruising in until it all fell apart (who could forget that debacle?).
Shelton has been a streaky player at best. Sure, he could come in and just light things up, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Casey, on the other hand, has commited ZERO errors at 1st base in the past 2 seasons, and whiffs very infrequently (12 times in 119 AB for Detroit), while Shelton has fanned 98 times in 356 plate appearances.
Shelton definitely hits for more power, but Casey consistently gets wood on the ball. His defensive prowess (who said he "sucks" in the field???) and his ability to get the bat on the ball keep him in there. That, and the fact that he is actually better against lefties than righties (.296 vs. .265), where with Shelton it is pretty much a wash (.286 and .272 respectively).

All this demonstrates to me is that Casey makes an excellent pinch-hitter and a good defensive replacement. However, Shelton is still the clearly superior defensive player and the better overall hitter, plus he's reaching his prime while Casey is in decline.

[A.J.K.]

I think it should be mentioned that Casey has gotten robbed on a ton of hard-hit balls in recent weeks.

[sabretooth]

I was obviously pointing out that Shelton has the ability to be worse than Casey, something deemed impossible by Sabretooth.

Sure, Shelton could be easily be a little worse than Casey, but I don't think it's likely for him to be significantly worse. I was pretty strong in my statement, but I don't believe that anything is impossible when it comes to baseball, especially over a short 20-game period.

[Yoda]

plus he's reaching his prime while Casey is in decline.

Not sure what this has to do with this season, but I agree for the most part.

[sabretooth]

Not sure what this has to do with this season, but I agree for the most part.

I'm worried because it seems like Casey might be getting "fitted" for the job long-term while Shelton is getting the door slammed in his face. That would be a mistake, IMHO.

[estrepe1]

I'm worried because it seems like Casey might be getting "fitted" for the job long-term while Shelton is getting the door slammed in his face. That would be a mistake, IMHO.

I would be shocked if Casey is back next season. Honestly I would be semi-surprised if either one of them is back.

[Yoda]

Absolutely it would be a mistake. I doubt that's the case, though. Remember how long it took Shelton to get benched. I think they still believe (or hope) that he'll be a productive player in the future.

Other than not wanting to make changes this late in the season, there's been no indication that Casey is part of any future plans.

[tiger337]

I think it should be mentioned that Casey has gotten robbed on a ton of hard-hit balls in recent weeks.

I've seen a few of those but I usually see weak grounders and lazy fly balls.

[tiger337]

Other than not wanting to make changes this late in the season, there's been no indication that Casey is part of any future plans.

I agree with that but I think people are looking at past precedent. He seems to be the prototypical Tiger professional hitter - high batting average, modest slugging, no speed, aggressive. He is sort of similar to Young, White and post-2004 Rodriguez. I have a feeling (with not much evidence) that they'll look for a significant upgrade at first base this off-season but I also fear they might go with Casey if they can't find someone better.

[tigersfan25]

I do think Shelton will be back... but Casey needs to be shown the door...

[Yoda]

I do think Shelton will be back... but Casey needs to be shown the door...

That's my prediction.

Casey and Pudge shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. Dmitri was mostly here because we couldn't get rid of him and his contract. If the cantract ran out 2 years ago he probably wouldn't have been back.

[tiger337]

That's my prediction.

Casey and Pudge shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

As all around players, no. I was just talking about the type of hitter they are.

[estrepe1]

As all around players, no. I was just talking about the type of hitter they are.

Agreed. Ivan has really lost bat speed over the past 2 seasons. He always has had an aggressive approach to the plate but now it is actually somewhat hurting his production because he isn't able to catch up to the everything he swings at.

I do think Shelton will be back... but Casey needs to be shown the door...

Shelton might be back. But I think they are going to try to upgrade at first base with a trade this offseason. Just a gut feeling.

[diaspora04]

Shelton should start the next few games. Casey's <.600 OPS over 120 ABs is not acceptable, especially with Shelton available.

[pyrotigers]

I am 100% certain they will try to trade pitching for a real slugger at either a COF or 1B this offseason...

I would not mind bringing Casey back as a bench player, but I doubt he would accept that role.

[T.O. Tiger Fan]

With the young pitching on this team, Robertson and/or Maroth look expendable. Plus either Monroe or Thames could be used in a package as well to upgrade 1B or OF.

[ewsieg]

Just because Casey has made no errors, does not make him a good fielder. I don't think he's a bad fielder but he doesn't seem to have a lot of range. I'm also not very impressed with his scoops on low throws to first. I don't see a big difference between Casey and Shelton defensively. I don't believe Shelton was demoted because of the error. He was demoted because he was slumping. Now his replacement is slumping even worse.

I had always thought that Casey was a good fielder and Shelton....well, he was working on being an average one. But from what i've seen, Casey doesn't look that good. Granted, I (who doesn't get to see as many games as he hears) haven't seen Casey screw too much up, but he looks awful doing it. That popup to end the 8th tonight (maybe the 7th) was horrible looking, I was just waiting for him to trip over his own feet. I think i'd feel just as comfortable with Shelton at 1st defensively.

[Casimir]

I had always thought that Casey was a good fielder and Shelton....well, he was working on being an average one. But from what i've seen, Casey doesn't look that good. Granted, I (who doesn't get to see as many games as he hears) haven't seen Casey screw too much up, but he looks awful doing it. That popup to end the 8th tonight (maybe the 7th) was horrible looking, I was just waiting for him to trip over his own feet. I think i'd feel just as comfortable with Shelton at 1st defensively.

I didn't see the play, so I don't know the flight of it, but keep in mind it was at the Metrodome where many fly balls get lost due to the roof.

That specific play aside, Casey doesn't look good doing anything. He's too awkward looking to make anything he does look smooth. If he was like this when he was coming up through the minors, its kind of impressive that he got as far as he did considering how his "agility" had to have been a major turnoff in the eyes of many scouts.