So, is DD silently waiting to unload a big trade?

[FloridaTigers]

I'm waiting and waiting, and the deadline is fast approaching. I don't know if its his famous "poker face" or what it is, but I've heard NOTHING regarding trade rumors aside from the false possibilities of Soriano and Abreu. Does DD have something up his sleeve to counter the Sox's trades? We really do need some bullpen arms and one more bat. The bat doesn't even have to be an All-Star or anything, just a roleplayer who gets the job done.

[Yoda]

I don't think he needs to make a trade. The pressure is on the teams below us. If we were a couple behind Chicago, I'd say for sure. But he will likely only make a big trade if he gets a reasonable deal, which doesn't seem very likely.

[estrepe1]

The Sox upgraded in the bullpen and at backup C nothing to really have to counter there...

The Sox are unlikely to actually deal for Soriano in my opinion... As I said earlier I have been surprised before...

I think DD is playing poker like you said though. I think he is just waiting it out....

[FloridaTigers]

Yeah, if thats the case, then I'm falling for his bluff. :cheeky:

[keystone]

Remember, Dave is like an iceberg. Only 10% is visible above water.

[ballmich]

I don't think he needs to make a trade. The pressure is on the teams below us. If we were a couple behind Chicago, I'd say for sure. But he will likely only make a big trade if he gets a reasonable deal, which doesn't seem very likely.

i disagree. i think he has to do something to improve the ballclub. it's an important gesture to send to the players and fans, that the organization is committed to taking a legitimate shot at the world championship. if he doesn't make some sort of move the veterans on the ballclub will certainly take notice. plus, trades at the deadline can really invigorate the team, who may be losing focus now that they've pulled ahead of chicago.

now i don't think it has to be a blockbuster like soriano or abreu. but a trade for another veteran RP or a LHB who can platoon in LF and backup in CF would be ideal. he may be waiting until he gets a better read on DY... or sees how Miner pitches over his next start... or the health of Sanchez... or maybe he's just waiting for a few teams to 'officially' become sellers. could be a lot of reasons, and it may be several more days before any move is made at all.

[Yoda]

i disagree. i think he has to do something to improve the ballclub. it's an important gesture to send to the players and fans, that the organization is committed to taking a legitimate shot at the world championship. if he doesn't make some sort of move the veterans on the ballclub will certainly take notice. plus, trades at the deadline can really invigorate the team, who may be losing focus now that they've pulled ahead of chicago.

now i don't think it has to be a blockbuster like soriano or abreu. but a trade for another veteran RP or a LHB who can platoon in LF and backup in CF would be ideal. he may be waiting until he gets a better read on DY... or sees how Miner pitches over his next start... or the health of Sanchez... or maybe he's just waiting for a few teams to 'officially' become sellers. could be a lot of reasons, and it may be several more days before any move is made at all.

Because having the best record in baseball isn't enough of a gesture? :confused:

The players aren't idiots. Most of the fans aren't idiots. Trying to win it all this year would be great, but so would being a contender for the next 5-10 years. I don't think Dave wants to jeopardize that and I think most of the fans and players would be understanding of this. It took building the farm system to get us this far, he needs to stick to that plan in order to sustain that. That's why Cashman is finally refusing to trade their prospects.

[TigersMeow79]

Because having the best record in baseball isn't enough of a gesture? :confused:

The players aren't idiots. Most of the fans aren't idiots. Trying to win it all this year would be great, but so would being a contender for the next 5-10 years. I don't think Dave wants to jeopardize that and I think most of the fans and players would be understanding of this. It took building the farm system to get us this far, he needs to stick to that plan in order to sustain that. That's why Cashman is finally refusing to trade their prospects.

I disagree with ballmich sometimes but he does have a point. You may say players aren't idiots neither are fans but there is no jeopardizing being a contender for the next 5-10 years because you don't know what will happen year to year. After the steps the Indians and Brewers made last year why aren't they contending this year? You can't think about contending in 5 years when you have a winning team now. Here are a few scenarios

Scenario A
Dave does nothing, team stands pat, win division but out in round 1

Scenario B
Dave deals prospects for Soriano, team makes WS or ALCS but doesn't win either one. Tigers get 2 1st round picks for Soriano leaving. Prospects dealt mean anybody not named Maybin or Miller.

Scenario C
Dave does nothing, team falters misses out on playoffs

Scenario D
Dave deals prospects possibly Maybin, Tigers go on to win World Series.

Which scenario do you like.

[jjc]

Scenario E
Dave does nothing, team stands pat, win World Series

[Bondo]

I'll take A please.

B is tempting though.

[estrepe1]

What if they trade Maybin and don't win the WS TM? I mean no matter who they pick up there is no guarantee of a WS victory.

Then there is no WS and no top prospect....

[Brent]

I agree with ballmich too.

It may not be a block buster but I believe we'll acquire at least 2 players.

[TigersMeow79]

What if they trade Maybin and don't win the WS TM? I mean no matter who they pick up there is no guarantee of a WS victory.

Then there is no WS and no top prospect....

True I was going with best scenario trading the top prospect. My point is you can't afford to look a few years down the road.

[NJTiger]

Yahoo.com is talking up Soriano to the Sox.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhWNdB39j26wt6.2xxGrSG8RvLYF?slug=ys-mlbrumors&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[tigersfan25]

My point is you can't afford to look a few years down the road.
Why not? So we can be a one year wonder?

[TigersMeow79]

Why not? So we can be a one year wonder?

Ask Cleveland and Milwaukee fans what they think of building for the future.

[tigersfan25]

Ask Cleveland and Milwaukee fans what they think of building for the future.
Ask the Oakland A's fans what they think. Ask the Minnesota Twins fans what they think...

Ask the Baltimore fans about trading and signing guys to ridiculously long contracts at the detriment to their minor league system.

Seriously... I don't really have the time to debate this again... the Tigers wouldn't be where they are now without rebuilding, and you bloody well know it.

[TigersMeow79]

Ask the Oakland A's fans what they think. Ask the Minnesota Twins fans what they think...

Ask the Baltimore fans about trading and signing guys to ridiculously long contracts at the detriment to their minor league system.

Seriously... I don't really have the time to debate this again... the Tigers wouldn't be where they are now without rebuilding, and you bloody well know it.

I just called Terry Ryan and Billy Beane apparently they put me on hold to polish off their WS trophies. :wink:

Would you rather be Minnesota/Oakland making the playoffs a couple years in a year never sniffing the WS though or would you want to be Florida and win 2 WS in 8 years and have some down times in between? I guess that is an opinion question and give me Florida any time. I have watched awful baseball for the better part of a decade but if you snuck in 2 WS championships I doubt there would be much angst.

Where did I say the Tigers wouldn't be where they are without rebuilding?

[mtdman]

Things have fallen into place this year. You have to take advantage of your opportunities when presented. You don't wait to see what happens and hope to do better next year. The Cubs are a prime example of why not. You have to push for a WS this year.

That being said, I don't think they will make a blockbuster trade. Maybe a couple smaller trades, role players, depth players. No Soriano, no Abreu. If you ask me, Chicago trading for Soriano can only hurt them, not help. We have seen in Detroit that you can't out slug your way through baseball, winning pitching trumps that.

I also think DD is waiting to see what happens with DY, and Chris Shelton this week. He can afford to wait until the last minute, and he won't be bluffed into making dumb trades because of panic.

[tigersfan25]

I just called Terry Ryan and Billy Beane apparently they put me on hold to polish off their WS trophies. :wink:
I just called Bill Stoneman and Larry Beinfast... apparently, they are pretty pleased with the production of all their homegrown talent during their WS years...

Sorry, but what a lame argument. You can't argue with the Twins success just because they haven't won a WS eyt.

[mtdman]

I just called Bill Stoneman and Larry Beinfast... apparently, they are pretty pleased with the production of all their homegrown talent during their WS years...

Sorry, but what a lame argument. You can't argue with the Twins success just because they haven't won a WS eyt.


What success? Making it to the post season to be smacked by the Yankees? Give me a WS win over that any day. I'd trade a ws this year for another dozen years of futility.

[tigersfan25]

What success? Making it to the post season to be smacked by the Yankees? Give me a WS win over that any day. I'd trade a ws this year for another dozen years of futility.
I would love a World Series win... but it's not an either/or situation... The Tigers CAN win the World Series AND be productive in the future. They just need to be smart, that's all.

[ewsieg]

I don't think he has to do anything.....

That being said, I think we have some talent that other teams would love to have. Spurling should be dealt into the NL for something. It's not a move that would do anything for our current roster, but it would be the right thing to do as he's not going to play on this MLB squad and would garner good interest.

[mtdman]

I would love a World Series win... but it's not an either/or situation... The Tigers CAN win the World Series AND be productive in the future. They just need to be smart, that's all.


Agreed. But that doesn't mean you stand pat because you're scared of screwing up potential, mediocre success in the future. Like I said, the stars are aligned this year for us for some reason, you have to take advantage of that and push for the win this year. And I believe you can do that without selling out the farm system for a big name. We don't need a Soriano or Abreu to do that.

[Motor City Sonics]

I like the reverse Chocolate Chip cookies. You know, the chocolate cookies with the little vanilla chips. Those are good.

[Hongbit]

Things have fallen into place this year. You have to take advantage of your opportunities when presented. You don't wait to see what happens and hope to do better next year. The Cubs are a prime example of why not. You have to push for a WS this year.


There are no sure things in baseball.

http://imagesource.art.com/images/products/large/10106000/10106858.jpg

[tigersfan25]

But that doesn't mean you stand pat because you're scared of screwing up potential, mediocre success in the future.
Who said anything about standing pat? I don't mind trading prospects for a player that will help, but at the same time, we shouldn't unload the farm for Alfonso Soriano either.

Trading for a David Delucci isn't standing pat...

[TigersMeow79]

I just called Bill Stoneman and Larry Beinfast... apparently, they are pretty pleased with the production of all their homegrown talent during their WS years...

Sorry, but what a lame argument. You can't argue with the Twins success just because they haven't won a WS eyt.

Trust me I don't want to be the next Minnesota Twins, as mtd said I don't want to see the Tigers just get smacked in the playoffs year after year. I don't think Dellucci is going to cut. He will help but there are a couple matchups that wouldn't look good for the Tigers as any other team in the AL. Like I said if the Tigers face Boston in the best of 5 they will face Schilling twice, Tigers will need all their bats going for that. If Anaheim wins the division they will probably face Lackey twice. I like 5 game series but one of the tough spots for an opposition is facing a team with a dominant pitcher.

TF-I don't see where a lot of teams have won the WS lately and gone on to success in the future. I think the Yanks and Red Sox are a totally different animal and I don't think anybody sees a Tigers payroll over $100 mil or something like that.

White Sox-Sustained success we will see this year.
Red Sox-Different animal like I said.
Marlins-Decent team last year but only 83 wins each of the last 2 years doesn't get you much. If I saw a team win a WS I could live with 83 wins though but you said you want contention.
Angels-Closest team but after the WS they won 77 games, 92 and 95 wins. Of course the team also broke the bank in free agency to get Guerrero, Colon, Escobar and have a payroll over $100 mil

Like you said to be good in the future they have to be smart but you also forgot they need to spend money and bring in more talent.

[TigersMeow79]

There are no sure things in baseball.

http://imagesource.art.com/images/products/large/10106000/10106858.jpg

Thats a good example of a team that had the best record and stood pat at the deadline and didn't make a single move. Didn't turn out very well.

[tigersfan25]

Thats a good example of a team that had the best record and stood pat at the deadline and didn't make a single move. Didn't turn out very well.
Once again, who said anything about standing pat? Of course, I forgot, in your world of ill-logic, anything short of Soriano shall be considered "standing pat", no?

[Johnny Mac]

Lee or Soriano or nothing in my oppinion

i dont want dellucci or stairs or any of the other crap out there, keep our guys if we dont get one of those two.(thats assuming cabrera, crawford arent being traded)

[tigersfan25]

Lee or Soriano or nothing in my oppinion

i dont want dellucci or stairs or any of the other crap out there, keep our guys if we dont get one of those two.(thats assuming cabrera, crawford arent being traded)
Of course, by trading for that "crap" Dellucci or Stairs, we would eliiminate Alexis Gomez from the bench, and be able to platoon him with everybody's whipping boy, Craig Monroe.

But I see you like standing pat....

[TigersMeow79]

Once again, who said anything about standing pat? Of course, I forgot, in your world of ill-logic, anything short of Soriano shall be considered "standing pat", no?

Like I said I don't think Dellucci strikes fear into any pitchers the Tigers may face in the playoffs. I don't think he's a bad player but he isn't going to be a difference maker in my opinion. I wouldn't be upset about Dellucci but I also don't see him getting dealt at all.

[TigersMeow79]

Of course, by trading for that "crap" Dellucci or Stairs, we would eliiminate Alexis Gomez from the bench, and be able to platoon him with everybody's whipping boy, Craig Monroe.

But I see you like standing pat....

I would be shocked if the Tigers made the playoffs and Gomez was on the playoff roster. Of course it would probably depend on how many pitchers you carry because Maroth might be back as well. If Monroe is healthy I would prefer he be dealt for another bat that could possibly play LF. Also if the team acquired a utility infielder like has been discussed Todd Walker/Marlon Anderson I imagine they would put Infante out there and ship out Gomez.

[Hongbit]

Thats a good example of a team that had the best record and stood pat at the deadline and didn't make a single move. Didn't turn out very well.


There is not a single team in the history of baseball with a better record than the 2001 Seattle Mariners. They got beat by great pitching in a short series. It had nothing to do with what Pat Gillick did or didn't do at the deadline.

[TigersMeow79]

There is not a single team in the history of baseball with a better record than the 2001 Seattle Mariners. They got beat by great pitching in a short series. It had nothing to do with what Pat Gillick did or didn't do at the deadline.

Yes that's probably why they needed another bat instead. Of course they got spanked in the final game 12-3. I still think a team has flaws when you have Sele starting 2 games in the playoffs, great in the regular season but I don't think anybody had him confused as an ace. In 3 of those 5 games against the Yanks they started Sele twice and Paul Abbott once I don't know why people are suprised they lost.

[TheCouga]

Winning the World Series is mostly luck. The best team has a better chance of winning, but it's still not that much better of a chance than the worst team to make the playoffs. Anything can happen in a 7 (and especially a 5) game series. The best way to win a World Series is to keep returning to the playoffs year after year, and to have players that are used to playing under pressure. Knowing this, there is no way I would shoot myself in the foot in order to try and win a world series for just one year. I would try and build a dynasty and make returning to the playoffs a regular thing in Detroit. This builds the fan base to pay for better FA acquisitions. Detroit isn't that small of a market. There's no reason to think that this team can't have a $100 million payroll in a few years and still be making money. But you build a dynasty not by trading away your young core, but by keeping it intact and adding a FA here or there to help you.

[Jonesy]

Here is something People are failing to mention. Even if we trade for someone and just give up lower level minor league guys, they have to replace someone on the roster. Who? Thames, Monroe, Gomez, Infante? All these guys have played important roles thus far. Unless we get a guy like Lee, or Soriano, or even Abreu then I say relief pitcher or nothing.

[Dawgs]

True I was going with best scenario trading the top prospect. My point is you can't afford to look a few years down the road.

That is a very shortsighted statement. I think the exact opposite is true. You must look a few years down the road. Otherwise you end up with a team thats a mess financially and on the field.

[Dawgs]

i disagree. i think he has to do something to improve the ballclub. it's an important gesture to send to the players and fans, that the organization is committed to taking a legitimate shot at the world championship. if he doesn't make some sort of move the veterans on the ballclub will certainly take notice. plus, trades at the deadline can really invigorate the team, who may be losing focus now that they've pulled ahead of chicago.

now i don't think it has to be a blockbuster like soriano or abreu. but a trade for another veteran RP or a LHB who can platoon in LF and backup in CF would be ideal. he may be waiting until he gets a better read on DY... or sees how Miner pitches over his next start... or the health of Sanchez... or maybe he's just waiting for a few teams to 'officially' become sellers. could be a lot of reasons, and it may be several more days before any move is made at all.


Its an important gesture when your team is barely in contention. It can show your team your trying to build to win now or, as was the case last year with the Farnsworth trade, it may tell them your more intent on getting prospects for the future.

For a team thats 7-1/2 games in front of everyone, it could give the opposite message. Your not good enough to win, as is, even though your cruising through the season and nobody is even really close.

I think your making way to much of the "gesture" of a trade. These are professionals.

[Yoda]

I agree with Dawgs.

[Dawgs]

I just called Terry Ryan and Billy Beane apparently they put me on hold to polish off their WS trophies. :wink:

Would you rather be Minnesota/Oakland making the playoffs a couple years in a year never sniffing the WS though or would you want to be Florida and win 2 WS in 8 years and have some down times in between? I guess that is an opinion question and give me Florida any time. I have watched awful baseball for the better part of a decade but if you snuck in 2 WS championships I doubt there would be much angst.

Where did I say the Tigers wouldn't be where they are without rebuilding?


And how was Florida able to win 2 world championships? Through free agency? Nope they did it because they had an eye on the future and kept most of thier top prospects in the system.

Look at how Oakland was built. They werent built through free agency. They were built through the draft.

Running a team is a balancing act between win now and building depth in the farm system for the future. Teams with weak farm systems, like the Tigers, who trade thier remaining top prospects to win now, set themselves up for a stretch of 12 straight losing seasons and a 100 loss average for 5 straight seasons. Or something like it.

And what happens if you dont win now?

[Brent]

Its an important gesture when your team is barely in contention. It can show your team your trying to build to win now or, as was the case last year with the Farnsworth trade, it may tell them your more intent on getting prospects for the future.

For a team thats 7-1/2 games in front of everyone, it could give the opposite message. Your not good enough to win, as is, even though your cruising through the season and nobody is even really close.

I think your making way to much of the "gesture" of a trade. These are professionals.

I disagree.

I believe the player's want to see the GM acquire someone. Not a year goes by that a player on a selling team bitches about giving up or a player on a team that stands pat makes a comment that the front office doesn't believe in them enough.

Granted, it's usually a team that is several games out of the wildcard chase. But I don't get any warm fuzzies with a 7 game lead when, the White Sox and Twins chasing you.

I'm not saying it will take acquiring someone like Soriano or Abreu, but someone that would improve the team. Someone like a Delucci. Acquiring him wouldn't empty the farm system and would fulfill a need (LH bat, can play 3 OF positions, positive clubhouse influence, and has playoff experience).

[Biff Mayhem]

Frank effin Catalanotto

[tater6]

And how was Florida able to win 2 world championships? Through free agency? Nope they did it because they had an eye on the future and kept most of thier top prospects in the system.

Look at how Oakland was built. They werent built through free agency. They were built through the draft.

Running a team is a balancing act between win now and building depth in the farm system for the future. Teams with weak farm systems, like the Tigers, who trade thier remaining top prospects to win now, set themselves up for a stretch of 12 straight losing seasons and a 100 loss average for 5 straight seasons. Or something like it.

And what happens if you dont win now?
What has Oakland won, other than a division title?

The '97 marlins were built on free agency.
They traded many of those players away to build their farm system

[tiger337]

What has Oakland won, other than a division title?



They've won several division titles and they are a contender every year. That is better than most teams have done and they've done it on a very small pay roll. The "Oakland hasn't won anything" argument is silly.

[tater6]

They've won several division titles and they are a contender every year. That is better than most teams have done and they've done it on a very small pay roll. The "Oakland hasn't won anything" argument is silly.In the weakest division in the AL.

[ClintD]

Blockbuster deals at the deadline haven't seemed to guarantee the Yankees any World Series Rings over the past 7 years.

[TonyJM]

Couple things...

There is no one way to build a baseball team...Though I think it's apparent that your farm system HAS to produce some talent (whether for trades, depth or those one or two star players.) It's additionally apparent that you HAVE to get lucky in one way or another (guys stay healthy, scrap heap players work out, etc...)

As a fan, I always love the trade deadline just because there are so many possibilities, etc. However it's always impossible to judge a GM/team's performance at it. I have no idea what clubs are looking for, who the GM has been talking to and how our talent is evoluted. I would guess, that if the White Sox were offering a Fields-McCarthy-Liotta/type package, that it would probably be better than any package we could offer without Maybin in it. I think DD should be feeling out the market and adjusting to it...If he can get an Abreau/Soriano/Carlos Lee type for Sanchez +, I think it's a move worth making. But I don't know that he can, and as always, there are no guarentees once the move is made. Politically, outside of prospect-geeks, GMs rarely take heat for making this move, so there's definitely some incentive there.



-Tony

[tater6]

Blockbuster deals at the deadline haven't seemed to guarantee the Yankees any World Series Rings over the past 7 years.If I had to choose, I would choose to be more like the Yankees than a team like Oakland or Minny. I would rather see the Tigers trade away propects and play in the WS, than to win a division title and go nowhere.

[billfer]

In the weakest division in the AL.

The AL West is the weakest this year, but it hasn't been for the last half dozen years. The AL Central would hold that distinction. Oakland was beating out good Seattle and Anaheim teams.

[Edman85]

In the weakest division in the AL.

This year yes... In past years this hasn't been the case. In the past several years, the A's have won something: Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and until this year Detroit haven't won anything.

[ClintD]

If I had to choose, I would choose to be more like the Yankees than a team like Oakland or Minny. I would rather see the Tigers trade away propects and play in the WS, than to win a division title and go nowhere.

I think they are built more like Pudge's WS Championship Marlins Team. A lot of young guys that came up through the system mixed with veterans in key leadership positions. To maintain that balance, I'm sure a move or two will be made, I just don't see it being a "blockbuster". Call it "Polanco-esque"

[Ron Burgandy]

Here is something People are failing to mention. Even if we trade for someone and just give up lower level minor league guys, they have to replace someone on the roster. Who? Thames, Monroe, Gomez, Infante? All these guys have played important roles thus far. Unless we get a guy like Lee, or Soriano, or even Abreu then I say relief pitcher or nothing.

If we acquired Dellucci, he would replace Gomez. Net upgrade. Add in the upgrade of Young over Santiago, and those are two nice bench upgrades, probably worth an extra win or two.

[Edman85]

If I had to choose, I would choose to be more like the Yankees than a team like Oakland or Minny. I would rather see the Tigers trade away propects and play in the WS, than to win a division title and go nowhere.

So, you would rather the Tigers be a team that goes nowhere in the playoffs, as long as they trade young talent away for crap at the trading deadline? Are you suggesting that the reason the Yankees have been to the World Series of late (they haven't won since 2000) is that they are active at the deadline, but Oakland isn't? Last I checked, Oakland is generally one of the most active teams at the trading deadline when it comes to building for the stretch drive, so that point is killed.

[Madmanrick]

Its an important gesture when your team is barely in contention. It can show your team your trying to build to win now or, as was the case last year with the Farnsworth trade, it may tell them your more intent on getting prospects for the future.

For a team thats 7-1/2 games in front of everyone, it could give the opposite message. Your not good enough to win, as is, even though your cruising through the season and nobody is even really close.

I think your making way to much of the "gesture" of a trade. These are professionals.


If being 30+ games over .500 doesn't give this team the confidence it needs to win, then trading for some rent-a-bat isn't going to do it either. You know at this point, I'd of course LOVE to see our Tigers win it all, if only to silence all the nay-sayers. However, NOT at the expense of the next 10 years or so. This team has been playing great, they've got some issues, just like any team in the play-off hunt currently does. I do not believe, however that they have ANY glaring weakness, that would automatically presuppose they lose in the playoffs. As well as they've played this year, I'd take my chances with them in the playoffs everyday of the week.

That having been said, I'd love to see them pick up a piece or two, for the right price. If the WS want to overpay for Soriano, so be it, let them have him. It'll only make them weaker in the long run. Name another team that is currently in the playoff picture, besides Minnesota, that has the pitching depth that we do right now, and is performing up to expectations? I don't think you can.

[mtdman]

Who said anything about standing pat? I don't mind trading prospects for a player that will help, but at the same time, we shouldn't unload the farm for Alfonso Soriano either.


Then we agree.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Yes that's probably why they needed another bat instead. Of course they got spanked in the final game 12-3. I still think a team has flaws when you have Sele starting 2 games in the playoffs, great in the regular season but I don't think anybody had him confused as an ace. In 3 of those 5 games against the Yanks they started Sele twice and Paul Abbott once I don't know why people are suprised they lost.

Nah, they just needed better pitching than the other guys. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Abreu or Soriano in the lineup, both I would be tickled with Delucci/Monroe platooning in left, and another reliable set-up guy in the bullpen.

A wild card in this discussion is Polanco. His bat appears to be heating up, so he could do some damage in the #2 spot in the lineup, over the rest of the season + playoffs.

[Dawgs]

Something to consider: the Tigers lead the league by 7-1/2 games. DD is the one GM thats in a position of strength and may just be the one driving the cost up on Soriano. With DY hitting, he may feel that a lower cost, left handed bat with some obp skills is all the Tigers need. And hes just waiting til the deadline, hoping in the meantime our competitors screw themselves overpaying for something they dont need.

And now he has Williams scrambling, worried about what the Tigers may add as much as his own team. This rumor thats been put forward that Chicago would try and turn Soriano around just to keep him out of Detroit's hands, is telling.

[tiger337]

In the weakest division in the AL.

The Tigers played in the weakest division in the AL for a long time and never came close to a division title.

[mcqfesijiba]

Why are some people calling Dellucci "crap"? The guy hit 29 HRs last year and had an OBP of .367. Also, those weren't Texas inflated numbers because his road numbers were actually better than at home.

Now again this year, his OBP is up at .369 and his numbers are NOT being inflated by that tiny little park in Philly because again his road numbers are better on the road. He doesn't play much this year, because Philly is loaded in the OF with Abreu, Rowand, Burrell, and then Victorino (who is in AAA, but filled in for Rowand after an injury).

The guy also plays a solid LF (which the likes of Stairs, Daryle Ward, and some others can't claim). He can't hit lefties, but that's what Thames/Monroe would be for.

I don't know if he is truly available or not (if Philly is giving up on the year, why not?), but don't call the guy crap just because he doesn't have the "big name" of an Abreu or Soriano. Abreu and Soriano are better players on the whole, but with a guy like Dellucci the names Sanchez, Jurrjens, Maybin, Whelan, Larish, etc should not even come up. So the team could do nothing and stick with Alexis Gomez or whomever else, or they could trade for Abreu/Soriano/other big name and give up high ceiling prospects, or they can acquire a quiet contributor like Dellucci very little. This is assuming that they are looking more at LF than at 1B. A DH/crappy fielder like Daryle Ward or Matt Stairs isn't too high priority IMO.

[ballmich]

Because having the best record in baseball isn't enough of a gesture? :confused:

The players aren't idiots. Most of the fans aren't idiots. Trying to win it all this year would be great, but so would being a contender for the next 5-10 years. I don't think Dave wants to jeopardize that and I think most of the fans and players would be understanding of this. It took building the farm system to get us this far, he needs to stick to that plan in order to sustain that. That's why Cashman is finally refusing to trade their prospects.

having the best record in baseball isn't a gesture by management at all. it's the players who have given the organization the best record, not vice versa.

it is pretty common place for teams in play-off contention to make moves to solidify their position or make the team better for the play-offs. and for the record, i did point out that they didn't have to make a blockbuster trade, in by saying so I believe it was implied that we didn't have to jepardize the future at all to make a move to help us this year. trading for a platoon LHB or a RP will not force DD to stray from his "plan". but it will send a message to the veterans on the team who will be looking for an addition to the ballclub. this is not a perfect ballclub, there are problems to be addressed, and everyone will be looking for to see that those needs are met if at all possible. this includes the players and the fans. most playoff teams over the last 10 years have made moves at the deadline to improve their team. players have come to expect this. to not try to make an improvement to the roster, no matter how small it is, would definately resonate throughout the clubhouse.

and i disagree, most fans are idiots, but i'm not going to argue that one!

[tigersfan25]

and i disagree, most fans are idiots, but i'm not going to argue that one!
Fans may be idiots, but the fans at Motown Sports are self-described morons... it's the way we like to keep it around here :bandit:

[Dawgs]

having the best record in baseball isn't a gesture by management at all. it's the players who have given the organization the best record, not vice versa.

it is pretty common place for teams in play-off contention to make moves to solidify their position or make the team better for the play-offs. and for the record, i did point out that they didn't have to make a blockbuster trade, in by saying so I believe it was implied that we didn't have to jepardize the future at all to make a move to help us this year. trading for a platoon LHB or a RP will not force DD to stray from his "plan". but it will send a message to the veterans on the team who will be looking for an addition to the ballclub. this is not a perfect ballclub, there are problems to be addressed, and everyone will be looking for to see that those needs are met if at all possible. this includes the players and the fans. most playoff teams over the last 10 years have made moves at the deadline to improve their team. players have come to expect this. to not try to make an improvement to the roster, no matter how small it is, would definately resonate throughout the clubhouse.

and i disagree, most fans are idiots, but i'm not going to argue that one!

I disagree with your whole premise of a gesture or message needing to be sent to professionals not with the idea that a trade based on sound logic would help them win.

[DaBishop]

what's scary is that I'm getting from this thread that if we dont' do anything, make it to the playoffs but don't make it to the WS, people are going to be upset with DD. That's so sad.

[TigersMeow79]

And how was Florida able to win 2 world championships? Through free agency? Nope they did it because they had an eye on the future and kept most of thier top prospects in the system.

Look at how Oakland was built. They werent built through free agency. They were built through the draft.

Running a team is a balancing act between win now and building depth in the farm system for the future. Teams with weak farm systems, like the Tigers, who trade thier remaining top prospects to win now, set themselves up for a stretch of 12 straight losing seasons and a 100 loss average for 5 straight seasons. Or something like it.

And what happens if you dont win now?

Disagree Florida won the 97 WS because they went through free agency.

Dec 2 1995 signed P Kevin Brown
Jan 13 1996 signed P Livan Hernandez
Nov 26, 1996 signed OF John Cangelosi
Dec 3, 1996 signed OF Jim Eisenrich
Dec 9, 1996 signed P Alex Fernandez
Dec 10, 1996 signed P Dennis Cook
Dec 12, 1996 signed OF Moises Alou

If they didn't get all those guys I have my doubts they would have won a WS.

[estrepe1]

Disagree Florida won the 97 WS because they went through free agency.

Dec 2 1995 signed P Kevin Brown
Jan 13 1996 signed P Livan Hernandez
Nov 26, 1996 signed OF John Cangelosi
Dec 3, 1996 signed OF Jim Eisenrich
Dec 9, 1996 signed P Alex Fernandez
Dec 10, 1996 signed P Dennis Cook
Dec 12, 1996 signed OF Moises Alou

If they didn't get all those guys I have my doubts they would have won a WS.

I have a difficult time seeing the Tigers of this year being this good without free agency, trades, and the draft.

Success is built through a balancing act of all of the components. Long term success is easier to achieve with good development but to be truly successful you also need to fill gaps in with free agents/trades.

The balancing act that Dombrowski has to undertake this week and in the offseason will be making the right trades to ensure the present and the future. And keeping the right prospects. Not an easy task at all but that is what a GM is paid for.

[ballmich]

I disagree with your whole premise of a gesture or message needing to be sent to professionals not with the idea that a trade based on sound logic would help them win.

of course any trade needs to have the intent of bettering the ballclub with the ultimate goal of improving their odds of winning a world series. i'm not talking about adding people for the sake of adding them, with little or no thought as to how it will improve the ballclub or their chances of winning it.

i've heard a lot of ex-players comment that it's important for players to see that the organization is committed to winning by making the effort to pick-up a guy who can help the team down the stretch. most recently, i've heard this discussed on Baseball Tonight, probably about two weeks ago. i think it was Reynolds, or could have been Kruk... or both, i don't remember exactly. regardless, it will raise some eyebrows on the team, if we don't make a move this deadline - particularly with our weaknesses against RHP and in our RP being blantantly obvious and relatively easy fixes.

[tigersfan25]

Disagree Florida won the 97 WS because they went through free agency.

Dec 2 1995 signed P Kevin Brown
Jan 13 1996 signed P Livan Hernandez
Nov 26, 1996 signed OF John Cangelosi
Dec 3, 1996 signed OF Jim Eisenrich
Dec 9, 1996 signed P Alex Fernandez
Dec 10, 1996 signed P Dennis Cook
Dec 12, 1996 signed OF Moises Alou

If they didn't get all those guys I have my doubts they would have won a WS.
The 1997 Marlins wouldn't have won without their own players as well... don't underestimate the importance of guys like Edgar Renteria, Jeff Conine, Charles Johnson, and Robb Nenn...

And if you want to get technical, Livan Hernandez was produced in house., since he was signed out of Cuba.

[estrepe1]

The 1997 Marlins wouldn't have won without their own players as well... don't underestimate the importance of guys like Edgar Renteria, Jeff Conine, Charles Johnson, and Robb Nenn...

And if you want to get technical, Livan Hernandez was produced in house., since he was signed out of Cuba.

Agreed. That team like other teams wouldn't have won without any one of the three aspects of building a club.

[ballmich]

what's scary is that I'm getting from this thread that if we dont' do anything, make it to the playoffs but don't make it to the WS, people are going to be upset with DD. That's so sad.

ask the Mariner fans if they are upset that in 2001 they didn't make a move for a decent bat in LF down the stretch, as opposed to running Al Martin out there. guess those 116 wins in the regular season didn't mean that much afterall.

what's sad for me is that after one really great season, people think of DD as infallible. i know this isn't a popular opinion, but every squirrel finds a nut. let's see this ballclub repeat, or be competitive 3 years in a row before annoiting him as a savior. personally, i don't think we will repeat this performance next year at all. but if i'm wrong, then great. i'm not saying we need to trade away the future to make it happen this year, but picking up a decent role player won't jepardize our future at all. so why not? if we don't, i won't be upset. but it will be obvious to me that DD isn't a good GM, but I already sort of think that, so i guess nothing will have changed much for me.

now i suppose DD could come out after the trade deadline and say that no one was available, or the players we targeted were all traded elsewhere, or that everyone wanted too much in return, or that we couldn't take on the salary... and perhaps those are justifyable reasons for not making any moves. but i just don't believe those to be the case, at least at this point in time. so yeah, i think we should be looking to add a LHB in LF or a RP. and if we don't, it would be very puzzling.

[tiger337]

what's scary is that I'm getting from this thread that if we dont' do anything, make it to the playoffs but don't make it to the WS, people are going to be upset with DD. That's so sad.

I really don't like "the must win it all or you're a failure" attitude that so many sports fans have. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. There are a lot of people who think that the Braves have not been a successful organization because they never win it all. That never made sense to me.

[Ron Burgandy]

but it will be obvious to me that DD isn't a good GM, but I already sort of think that, so i guess nothing will have changed much for me.


So the improvement from 2003 to 2006 hasn't convinced you DD is a good GM, but a deadline deal for Soriano, Abreu, or Dellucci would? :confused:

[RobSk]

True I was going with best scenario trading the top prospect. My point is you can't afford to look a few years down the road.

Sure. That certainly served the Tigers very well during the late 80's and early 90's.

My response is that I want the scenario where, when we trade prospects, we get their value or above in return, both in the short and long term. If you don't think a trade does that, I wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't mind trading Maybin, I just want value for him. 2 months of Soriano is not value for Maybin, IMO. You differ. Cool.

Rob

[Ron Burgandy]

I really don't like "the must win it all or you're a failure" attitude that so many sports fans have. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. There are a lot of people who think that the Braves have not been a successful organization because they never win it all. That never made sense to me.

It's two separate questions. They are, of course, a successful organization. 14 straight division championships is unreal. But they have ultimately failed more often than not to achieve the ultimate prize. There are different levels of success.

I want a consistent winner AND an occassional World Series championship. If forced to choose between one or the other, I'll take the championship.

[RobSk]

What has Oakland won, other than a division title?


No wonder Drew Sharp is so popular. :(

Rob

[estrepe1]

So the improvement from 2003 to 2006 hasn't convinced you DD is a good GM, but a deadline deal for Soriano, Abreu, or Dellucci would? :confused:

I was quite confused by the statement as well.... I mean this season is proof how good DD is....

[knoxvegas]

what's scary is that I'm getting from this thread that if we dont' do anything, make it to the playoffs but don't make it to the WS, people are going to be upset with DD. That's so sad.

:ponder:

Agreed! How quickly some forget where we have come from.

add: I do understand the "seize the moment" philosophy. Still, enjoy the ride as long as it lasts and dont get all ***** if it ends early.

[screwball]

I really don't like "the must win it all or you're a failure" attitude that so many sports fans have. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. There are a lot of people who think that the Braves have not been a successful organization because they never win it all. That never made sense to me.

That's fine if you think that, it's your choice. Ask the guys in the clubhouse what they think and I'll guess they say "give me the jewelry". I don't know of any kid growing up that didn't dream about winning a world series. I don't think the guys in the clubhouse think any differently now.

Sure the Braves have been successful, and so has the A's. Who remembers who came in 2nd, or 3rd, or made the playoffs. Nobody. But they have won how many World Series in the last 20 years? It's all about the hardware, that's why they play, or that's why they "should" play. Althougth I don't think as many do today as we might think. It's more about the money these days it seems. If a guys isn't willing to bust his butt and help win a World Championship, I don't want him on my team. Period.

[tigersfan25]

Atlanta HAS won the World Series...

[tigersfan25]

The goal always is the World Series, sure. But once the playoffs start, all bets are off... the best way to create a dynasty is to create a competitive ballclub for years to come. It IS possible to win the World Series year in and year out if you allow yourself to by being shrewd with signings, trades, and draft picks.

You have to credit Atlanta and Oakland, because they have put their teams in the playoffs year in and year out. They ALWAYS at least have a chance to win a World Series.

[ballmich]

So the improvement from 2003 to 2006 hasn't convinced you DD is a good GM, but a deadline deal for Soriano, Abreu, or Dellucci would? :confused:

there was no place to go but up. we would have improved under the guidance of a lot of different GMs. i don't think DD has done anything that is particularly noteworthy to signify that he is great at his job. he signed some high priced talent in pudge and maggs, but wouldn't a lot of other GMs done the same in his position. he drafted a few good, young players, but has developed absolutely zero depth in our system. i won't argue with this seasons results, because we've played phenominal baseball. but we've also been one of the healthiest clubs in the majors, something DD has no control over. and i think we've been fortunate that a lot of guys are having very good seasons, or at least better than should be expected - another thing that DD has no control over. in the process, he has also dished out some very questionable contacts, to Maggs, Polanco, Rogers and Jones. is he a great GM, i just don't think so. but i know that it isn't a popular opinion in light of our record this season. if we repeat this performance next season, or are competitive for the playoffs three years in a row, well, then i'll send DD an apology. how about that? til then i see no reason to think that he's anything that he's not.

for the record, i never said a deadline deal would make DD a good GM. i said that i know he's not a good GM if he doesn't make a deal to improve the ballclub. there's a difference there, and a substantial one at that. i'm also not in favor of a soriano or abreu deal. we just need to add a small piece or two, which wouldn't disrupt our efforts to continue building our minor league system.

[Johnny Mac]

he tried for tejada, so i think something is coming, read below

The Tigers recently tried to trade for Miguel Tejada but backed away after being told it would take one of two young star pitchers -- Justin Verlander or Jeremy Bonderman -- to even enter the discussions.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/25/scoop.tuesday/index.html

[Ron Burgandy]

there was no place to go but up. we would have improved under the guidance of a lot of different GMs. i don't think DD has done anything that is particularly noteworthy to signify that he is great at his job.

I don't think that there are more than 1 or 2 other GMs in the game that could have taken the hand DD was dealt in 2003 and make it into the best team in baseball by 2006. This is an incredible, unprecedented turnaround.

but we've also been one of the healthiest clubs in the majors, something DD has no control over.

We've lost our #3 starter for half the year, and our opening day #5 hitter for 2/3rds of the season. Plus we've had various other minor ailments (Polonco's back, Monroe's ankle, etc.). We haven't suffered a rash of injuries, like the Yankees, but we haven't been unscathed.

but i know that it isn't a popular opinion in light of our record this season. if we repeat this performance next season, or are competitive for the playoffs three years in a row, well, then i'll send DD an apology. how about that? til then i see no reason to think that he's anything that he's not.


It's not just about this year's success. It's about the fact that Dombrowski has a nearly 20 year track record of success as an MLB GM. He's one of the top 5 GMs in the game, hands down. We're lucky to have him.

[DaBishop]

ask the Mariner fans if they are upset that in 2001 they didn't make a move for a decent bat in LF down the stretch, as opposed to running Al Martin out there. guess those 116 wins in the regular season didn't mean that much afterall.

what's sad for me is that after one really great season, people think of DD as infallible. i know this isn't a popular opinion, but every squirrel finds a nut. let's see this ballclub repeat, or be competitive 3 years in a row before annoiting him as a savior. personally, i don't think we will repeat this performance next year at all. but if i'm wrong, then great. i'm not saying we need to trade away the future to make it happen this year, but picking up a decent role player won't jepardize our future at all. so why not? if we don't, i won't be upset. but it will be obvious to me that DD isn't a good GM, but I already sort of think that, so i guess nothing will have changed much for me.

now i suppose DD could come out after the trade deadline and say that no one was available, or the players we targeted were all traded elsewhere, or that everyone wanted too much in return, or that we couldn't take on the salary... and perhaps those are justifyable reasons for not making any moves. but i just don't believe those to be the case, at least at this point in time. so yeah, i think we should be looking to add a LHB in LF or a RP. and if we don't, it would be very puzzling.
First of all, the Mariners 2001 season does not compare the the Tigers season this year. Seattle won 91 games the year before and were a Wild Card team.

Second, I think it's Dave's well-documented history of success in turning around franchise's that gives him so much Carte Blanche with the people here. You say any GM would have improved the team...yeah probably, but would any GM be running a team that in 3 years has gone from the worst franchise in history to serious WS contenders? No, not a lot of them would. It just sounds like you're criticizing to criticize. Dave's done a great job and by not trading all our top prospects for rent-a-players or guys with enormous salaries that would hamstring us in the future(while he may be willing to spend, I don't think Illitch wants a 100+ million dollar team salary) I think he's still doing a great job.

[CaliforniaDreaming]

he ...has developed absolutely zero depth in our system.

I'm confused on this one. There is another thread going right now entitled "Tigers rank 9th in prospect depth" and has a link to another article. (http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40524).

So which is true?

[Buddha]

The 1997 Marlins wouldn't have won without their own players as well... don't underestimate the importance of guys like Edgar Renteria, Jeff Conine, Charles Johnson, and Robb Nenn...

And if you want to get technical, Livan Hernandez was produced in house., since he was signed out of Cuba.

As long as we're getting technical, Nen was acquired in a trade and Conine was an expansion draft pick developed by the Royals.

Signing someone out of Cuba is the same as a free agent signing.

That Marlins team was 80% free agents or trades.

[tiger337]

We've lost our #3 starter for half the year, and our opening day #5 hitter for 2/3rds of the season. Plus we've had various other minor ailments (Polonco's back, Monroe's ankle, etc.). We haven't suffered a rash of injuries, like the Yankees, but we haven't been unscathed.



#3 starter and #5 hitter are big overstatements. I consider Maroth to be their 5th best starting pitcher and Young is just a mediocre hitter without a position and one who was almost guaranteed to get hurt. If going into the season, I was told that those would be the only significant injuries this year, I would have been very happy and surprised. The Tigers have been really healthy this year.

That's not to take anything away from Dombrowski but they have been both very good and very fortunate this year. Everything has gone right - good health, quickly developing rookies, etc. An elbow injury to Verlander or Bonderman, a significant injury to Ordonez or Guillen, a sharp decline from a veteran ot two and they could be an 84 win team next year and everybody will be moaning about a one year wonder. Dombrowski has done a great job but a lot of stuff has come together nicely for the Tigers this year. I'll rank him as a special GM (as opposed to just a good GM) when they become a perennial contender.

[TigersMeow79]

Sure. That certainly served the Tigers very well during the late 80's and early 90's.

My response is that I want the scenario where, when we trade prospects, we get their value or above in return, both in the short and long term. If you don't think a trade does that, I wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't mind trading Maybin, I just want value for him. 2 months of Soriano is not value for Maybin, IMO. You differ. Cool.

Rob

I never said I wanted to deal Maybin for Soriano.

[TigersMeow79]

The goal always is the World Series, sure. But once the playoffs start, all bets are off... the best way to create a dynasty is to create a competitive ballclub for years to come. It IS possible to win the World Series year in and year out if you allow yourself to by being shrewd with signings, trades, and draft picks.

You have to credit Atlanta and Oakland, because they have put their teams in the playoffs year in and year out. They ALWAYS at least have a chance to win a World Series.

I think your giving too much credit to Oakland they made the playoffs every year from 2000-2003 but haven't made it since then and may not make it this year either. So 4 straight years of playoff baseball but never winning a single series and they followed it up with 2 years of no playoffs. I guess we have different ideas of success.

[DaYooperASBDT]

he has also dished out some very questionable contacts, to Maggs, Polanco, Rogers and Jones.

I might give you one out of four from that group, but even Jones has been pitching better of late.

Your argument is fraught with pitfalls, because it never addresses the guys that Dombrowski TRIED to sign. Ordonez was a "booby prize", although he has performed well in 2006.

[TigersMeow79]

I might give you one out of four from that group, but even Jones has been pitching better of late.

Your argument is fraught with pitfalls, because it never addresses the guys that Dombrowski TRIED to sign. Ordonez was a "booby prize", although he has performed well in 2006.

So Dombrowski deserves credit for trying to sign guys now? He has done a decent job but if we go by a GM trying to sign guys then all GM's are doing a good job then.

[screwball]

The goal always is the World Series, sure. But once the playoffs start, all bets are off... the best way to create a dynasty is to create a competitive ballclub for years to come. It IS possible to win the World Series year in and year out if you allow yourself to by being shrewd with signings, trades, and draft picks.

You have to credit Atlanta and Oakland, because they have put their teams in the playoffs year in and year out. They ALWAYS at least have a chance to win a World Series.

I agree with this, especially about the goal of always winning the World Series. After re-reading the thread I think I mis-read the success part. In the context of what Mr. 337 said, people that don't consider Atlanta and Oakland successful I don't understand either.

[tater6]

So, you would rather the Tigers be a team that goes nowhere in the playoffs, as long as they trade young talent away for crap at the trading deadline? Check my post, I think I said just the oposite.

[TigersMeow79]

I agree with this, especially about the goal of always winning the World Series. After re-reading the thread I think I mis-read the success part. In the context of what Mr. 337 said, people that don't consider Atlanta and Oakland successful I don't understand either.

Atlanta successful? Absolutely. I am not so sure about Oakland.

[DetroitFolly]

Atlanta is a waste of great talent. If you win 14 division titles, and can only convert that into one championship...I don't consider that success.

Is it better than what we've put up with for the past 15 years? Absolutely. But I still think of it as nothing more than a huge waste.

Look at the crowds in Atlanta. They agree with me.

[Tayshaun22]

Look at the crowds for Falcons and Hawks games. Atlanta isn't a sports town. I can't say I buy that argument.

[TigersMeow79]

Atlanta is a waste of great talent. If you win 14 division titles, and can only convert that into one championship...I don't consider that success.

Is it better than what we've put up with for the past 15 years? Absolutely. But I still think of it as nothing more than a huge waste.

Look at the crowds in Atlanta. They agree with me.

Atlanta has always been criticized for the poor attendance and rightfully so to an extent but they are 12th in MLB attendance and that is for a team 4 games under .500. In comparison the Tigers are 15th in MLB attendance but average 4000 fewer fans per game. Turner Field has a higher capacity but still for a team under .500 drawing 33000 a game is pretty good.

[DaYooperASBDT]

So Dombrowski deserves credit for trying to sign guys now? He has done a decent job but if we go by a GM trying to sign guys then all GM's are doing a good job then.

What I'm saying is that is was better that he signed Ordonez, in place of signing nobody. The failure to sign, say, Troy Glaus, was not for lack of effort. Glaus just plain didn't want to go to Detroit.

Bet he's cursing himself now, though.

[RobSk]

Atlanta is a waste of great talent. If you win 14 division titles, and can only convert that into one championship...I don't consider that success.


That's just insane. One of the greatest runs any sports franchise has ever had, and you categorize it as "failure". Why even bother being a sports fan? You're doomed to constant, overwhelming disappointment.

Rob

[dt35456884]

It's clear to me that if the Tigers don't win the World Series this year, there will be those on this board who will characterize Dombrowski's season as a failure.

That is an absolute certainty if we don't win it all.

[TigersMeow79]

It's clear to me that if the Tigers don't win the World Series this year, there will be those on this board who will characterize Dombrowski's season as a failure.

That is an absolute certainty if we don't win it all.

Disappointing, not a failure.

[dt35456884]

Disappointing, not a failure.

People who expected nothing have no right to be disappointed.

[Edman85]

Check my post, I think I said just the oposite.

No you didn't. The Yankees haven't won jack in the playoffs the past five years and you said you want the Tigers to be like the Yankees, instead of other teams who haven't done crap in the playoffs the past five years.

[Ron Burgandy]

People who expected nothing have no right to be disappointed.

That's clearly wrong. Expectations change as the year progresses. Right now, I would be a little disappointed if we don't win the WS...years like this don't come around often. However, if we get an injury or two, or otherwise fade down the stretch (while still making the playoffs) I would be less disappointed by an early playoff exit.

[TigersMeow79]

That's clearly wrong. Expectations change as the year progresses. Right now, I would be a little disappointed if we don't win the WS...years like this don't come around often. However, if we get an injury or two, or otherwise fade down the stretch (while still making the playoffs) I would be less disappointed by an early playoff exit.

That sounds right. Just because you didn't expect much when the season began doesn't mean that expectations don't change.

[dt35456884]

That's clearly wrong. Expectations change as the year progresses.

Okay.

I expect that going into next year the Tigers will have lofty expectations for their season. If they only have 45 wins at the All-Star break, I expect everyone to adjust their expectations. Then if the Tigers finish the year with 85 wins everybody should be satisfied with the season.

Think that would ever happen?

[Ron Burgandy]

Okay.

I expect that going into next year the Tigers will have lofty expectations for their season. If they only have 45 wins at the All-Star break, I expect everyone to adjust their expectations. Then if the Tigers finish the year with 85 wins everybody should be satisfied with the season.

Think that would ever happen?

The fact that the principle only works when you enter the year with low expectations does not mean it doesn't exist.

And for what it's worth, unless we make substantial upgrades in the off-season, I will only expect around 85 wins next year. We are going to be due for some regression. That's why I think not winning it all this year will be disappointing, because I don't see us having this good a shot again in the immediate future.

[Edman85]

If we go three and out in the playoffs, this year is still a success to me. If it is our only playoff appearence of the decade, then it is seasons 2007-2010 at fault, not 2006.

[estrepe1]

Okay.

I expect that going into next year the Tigers will have lofty expectations for their season. If they only have 45 wins at the All-Star break, I expect everyone to adjust their expectations. Then if the Tigers finish the year with 85 wins everybody should be satisfied with the season.

Think that would ever happen?

Absolutely not. I personally had no expectation that this team would even be above .500.... so anything after the 82nd win is gravy for me...

[TigersMeow79]

The fact that the principle only works when you enter the year with low expectations does not mean it doesn't exist.

And for what it's worth, unless we make substantial upgrades in the off-season, I will only expect around 85 wins next year. We are going to be due for some regression. That's why I think not winning it all this year will be disappointing, because I don't see us having this good a shot again in the immediate future.

I agree with this as well.

[Ron Burgandy]

If we go three and out in the playoffs, this year is still a success to me. If it is our only playoff appearence of the decade, then it is seasons 2007-2010 at fault, not 2006.

One can consider the season a success and still be disappointed we didn't do more.

[estrepe1]

If we go three and out in the playoffs, this year is still a success to me. If it is our only playoff appearence of the decade, then it is seasons 2007-2010 at fault, not 2006.

Absolutely.

[estrepe1]

Atlanta has always been criticized for the poor attendance and rightfully so to an extent but they are 12th in MLB attendance and that is for a team 4 games under .500. In comparison the Tigers are 15th in MLB attendance but average 4000 fewer fans per game. Turner Field has a higher capacity but still for a team under .500 drawing 33000 a game is pretty good.

What would the difference have been if this town expected the Tigers to be good from the beginning? It seems to me people took a wait and see approach.

[dt35456884]

The fact that the principle only works when you enter the year with low expectations does not mean it doesn't exist.

Which is precisely what makes it so disingenuous.

[TigersMeow79]

What would the difference have been if this town expected the Tigers to be good from the beginning? It seems to me people took a wait and see approach.

I agree with this but wouldn't Atlanta have taken a hit when they were 10+ games under .500? I can understand how people can say Atlanta as a sports town isn't good but they are still drawing fans well have a below average season.

[dt35456884]

I agree with this but wouldn't Atlanta have taken a hit when they were 10+ games under .500? I can understand how people can say Atlanta as a sports town isn't good but they are still drawing fans well have a below average season.

One might expect Atlanta to be a healthier baseball town than Detroit, at least going into the season. They've been winning consecutive division titles for almost a decade and a half. In the same timeframe, we haven't even had one winning season.

[Edman85]

One might expect Atlanta to be a healthier baseball town than Detroit, at least going into the season. They've been winning consecutive division titles for almost a decade and a half. In the same timeframe, we haven't even had one winning season.

The fact that it isn't 40-50 degrees in Atlanta for much of April and May goes a long way in helping attendance as well...

[ballmich]

The fact that it isn't 40-50 degrees in Atlanta for much of April and May goes a long way in helping attendance as well...

so that makes it what, say 35 degrees in detroit today?

[TigersMeow79]

The fact that it isn't 40-50 degrees in Atlanta for much of April and May goes a long way in helping attendance as well...

By Turner Field it's pretty much a dump though so wouldn't warm weather and being in a bad area cross eachother off?

[estrepe1]

By Turner Field it's pretty much a dump though so wouldn't warm weather and being in a bad area cross eachother off?

I am not sure. Inside of the stadium is safe. I am sure that there are places to park that are safe. So if it is a choice between being cold for 2-4 hours or being in a ball park while the surrounding area is a dangerous I know what I would choose.

[Edman85]

By Turner Field it's pretty much a dump though so wouldn't warm weather and being in a bad area cross eachother off?

Not when comparing it to Comerica Park...

[TigersMeow79]

Not when comparing it to Comerica Park...

Have you been to Turner Field?

Here are some monthly avg high/low temp

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USGA0028?from=search

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMI0229?from=search

Biggest difference is in Apr but there are 81 home games. If people in May are going to games because the avg temp is 72 and not 80 they have some problems.

[screwball]

Atlanta successful? Absolutely. I am not so sure about Oakland.

Depends on how you look at it. As an owner, directing his GM, you would want to field a competative team each and every year. The more you win, the more people in the seats. I don't know about Oakland's attendance, but they usually field a competative team. That's a good thing.

Atlanta won a WS, Oakland has not. When you think about it, every team has a chance to win it all every year. Only one will. Some know in spring training they have no chance. 03 Tigers as an example.

On the other hand, we have the Tigers of 06. Wow! Who would have figured. Reminds me of the Sox of a year ago. Everybody is waiting on them to fold, but they haven't. The Tigers seem to be a carbon copy of the Sox from last year. What that brings is an opportunity.

That begs the question, do you upgrade, stay put, what do you do? Is it worth the "big" picture to mortgage the future for this year? Maybe. I think there is an argument there, at least a debate (especially on here). Look at Cleveland, after last year. Big expectations. Not. The Tigers are in a wonderful position, but there are still decisions to be made, I think. Someone, and I'm glad it's DD, must decide if this is "the" year, and make a deal, vs. let's take our chances, trade nobody, and continue to build for the future.

How much of your future do you give up to win this year. That has to be the 64,000,000 dollar question. It will be fun to watch how Mr. Illich, DD, and company play this out. Are we all having fun yet? What a ball.

For the record, if it was a screwball like me, I'm signing a pitcher.

Go Tigers!

[tigersfan25]

By Turner Field it's pretty much a dump though so wouldn't warm weather and being in a bad area cross eachother off?
Comerica Park is in a dumpy city (with all due respect, that's the stereotype)... wouldn't that combined with cold weather AND the fact that the team hasn't had a winning season in 13 years create a problem?

[tigersfan25]

Have you been to Turner Field?

Have you? I've been there, you overstate how bad that part of town is, and the weather in April is gorgeous, and they have won 14 straight divisional titles. Why wouldn't people go to the spring games there?

[TigersMeow79]

Comerica Park is in a dumpy city (with all due respect, that's the stereotype)... wouldn't that combined with cold weather AND the fact that the team hasn't had a winning season in 13 years create a problem?

Absolutely. I don't mind that the fans come out, I have always said what bothers me is when people say Detroit is a baseball town. I don't think anybody knows what a baseball town is. As I mentioned before take for instance Colorado it's not exactly a great climate especially in Apr, and even May since there have been snowouts they have had 3 winning seasons in franchise history but they were always drawing 2+ mil even 3+ mil for some years until last year they drew under 2. I think next year should be interesting apparently the Tigers only had 9000 season ticket holders their lowest in some time. Are fans going to rush back and get season tickets or will they wait and see if this team is consistent year in and year out?

[TigersMeow79]

Have you? I've been there, you overstate how bad that part of town is, and the weather in April is gorgeous, and they have won 14 straight divisional titles. Why wouldn't people go to the spring games there?

I went there for the Olympics and went there 6 years later and I know they dress it up for the Olympics but you would have been hard pressed to tell me they had the Olympics in that area 6 years before I came back. I saw a few bums sleeping by the stadium. Apparently the city was given millions upon millions to fix everything up and it never happened.

[tigersfan25]

Absolutely. I don't mind that the fans come out, I have always said what bothers me is when people say Detroit is a baseball town. I don't think anybody knows what a baseball town is. As I mentioned before take for instance Colorado it's not exactly a great climate especially in Apr, and even May since there have been snowouts they have had 3 winning seasons in franchise history but they were always drawing 2+ mil even 3+ mil for some years until last year they drew under 2. I think next year should be interesting apparently the Tigers only had 9000 season ticket holders their lowest in some time. Are fans going to rush back and get season tickets or will they wait and see if this team is consistent year in and year out?
I would be utterly shocked, especially considering the fact that long lines have been forming at Comerica Park for tickets to games, if they didn't significantly increase the amount of season ticket holders next year...

[JonBenke]

TM79; when were you at Turner Field, cause while yeah .. it's on the south side, but it's nowhere near the one bad part of the south side.

It's nowhere near as bad as Detroit, and access to Turner Field is great.

[tigersfan25]

I went there for the Olympics and went there 6 years later and I know they dress it up for the Olympics but you would have been hard pressed to tell me they had the Olympics in that area 6 years before I came back. I saw a few bums sleeping by the stadium. Apparently the city was given millions upon millions to fix everything up and it never happened.
You must have went to a different stadium than I did... I was there earlier this year on a business meeting, and my client treated me to a ballgame... sat in right field. As far as I can tell, there's quite a bit of gentrification in that area, and I've seen much worse. I can name a few stadiums off the top of my head that are in worse areas than Atlanta, and Comerica Park is one of them.

I know some gentrification has taken place in the Comerica area, but it still is pretty bad there.

[TigersMeow79]

TM79; when were you at Turner Field, cause while yeah .. it's on the south side, but it's nowhere near the one bad part of the south side.

It's nowhere near as bad as Detroit, and access to Turner Field is great.

Like I said it was 2002 when I was last there. I mean it could have possibly changed but comparing when I saw it in 1996 to 2002 it was night and day the scene. Like I said I am not suprised in differences but it was pretty poor in my opinion. I have been to Buffalo as well to see a Sabres game and that is absolutely ghetto as well. Comerica is getting better but still not great.

[JonBenke]

I went there for the Olympics and went there 6 years later and I know they dress it up for the Olympics but you would have been hard pressed to tell me they had the Olympics in that area 6 years before I came back. I saw a few bums sleeping by the stadium. Apparently the city was given millions upon millions to fix everything up and it never happened.
Dude, if you frown upon "bums sleeping by stuff", let me ask .. is there a sports venue in the United States that does not have this problem?

Most sports franchises are in MAJOR CITITES, and most major citites have a minor problem with the "homeless", but .. hey, if you can name one that doesn't, please, let me know. I have been to Seattle, which is better than both Detroit and Atlanta, by far, but the bums .. the bums were everywhere.

[TigersMeow79]

Dude, if you frown upon "bums sleeping by stuff", let me ask .. is there a sports venue in the United States that does not have this problem?

Most sports franchises are in MAJOR CITITES, and most major citites have a minor problem with the "homeless", but .. hey, if you can name one that doesn't, please, let me know. I have been to Seattle, which is better than both Detroit and Atlanta, by far, but the bums .. the bums were everywhere.

I will be honest I said Buffalo was really ghetto, I didn't see any bums though but probably because it was middle of January and February. :wink:

I don't frown upon bums sleeping by stuff but I was told Atlanta was given large sums of money. I would have thought that money would have moved out a lot of that kind of stuff.

[tigersfan25]

The worst stadium area has to be RFK in DC... I took a ride to the Stadium-Armory stop on the Metro just to get a picture of the old girl when I got out that way last year. Man, there is NOTHING going on there.

When I got back to the Metro station, the train was just pulling in... I made sure to hightail it through there, put my card in quickly and all, so I could get on that train... I didn't want to be stuck there...

[JonBenke]

I don't frown upon bums sleeping by stuff but I was told Atlanta was given large sums of money.
They were, but most of the money went towards weird things, which is a pretty big ongoing joke down here.

Anyway, how did we ever start talking about Atlanta/Turner Field .. from DD waiting to unload on some major trade?

[tigersfan25]

I don't frown upon bums sleeping by stuff but I was told Atlanta was given large sums of money. I would have thought that money would have moved out a lot of that kind of stuff.
Cities squander money like nobodys business... I wouldn't be surprised if Atlanta didn't either.

Either that, or I've been listening too much to Benke's favorite Atlanta talk show host talk about how bad that cities government is... (Benke should know who I'm talking about here)

[TigersMeow79]

The worst stadium area has to be RFK in DC... I took a ride to the Stadium-Armory stop on the Metro just to get a picture of the old girl when I got out that way last year. Man, there is NOTHING going on there.

When I got back to the Metro station, the train was just pulling in... I made sure to hightail it through there, put my card in quickly and all, so I could get on that train... I didn't want to be stuck there...

Sounds like you're talking about the United Center in Chicago. I have never been but have heard awful stories to the point where I wouldn't even want to go to that area.

[TigersMeow79]

They were, but most of the money went towards weird things, which is a pretty big ongoing joke down here.

Anyway, how did we ever start talking about Atlanta/Turner Field .. from DD waiting to unload on some major trade?

I heard Dombrowski is moving the team in a big trade. :silly:

[diaspora04]

TM79; when were you at Turner Field, cause while yeah .. it's on the south side, but it's nowhere near the one bad part of the south side.

It's nowhere near as bad as Detroit, and access to Turner Field is great.

These are true statements, with the exception of TM79's experience with Turner Field or Atlanta, of which I have no knowledge.

[tigersfan25]

Sounds like you're talking about the United Center in Chicago. I have never been but have heard awful stories to the point where I wouldn't even want to go to that area.
Been there... that part of town isn't pretty...

[DaYooperASBDT]

I would be utterly shocked, especially considering the fact that long lines have been forming at Comerica Park for tickets to games, if they didn't significantly increase the amount of season ticket holders next year...

Should increase, but our wonderful Michigan economy should be factored into this somehow, shouldn't it?

[tigersfan25]

Should increase, but our wonderful Michigan economy should be factored into this somehow, shouldn't it?
If anything, it will mean more of the season ticket holders will be from Oakland County.