Are you still a Jones supporter?

[Biff Mayhem]

Well?

[kdog]

Nope. He should be put in mopup duty for awhile.

[FloridaTigers]

No. I thought he'd be decent, but he isn't anywhere near being "decent".

[pyrotigers]

No, but I don't think he's this terrible either, send him down to middle relief for awhile and see what happens.

And by middle relief I don't mean setting up in the 7th or 8th inning either.

[DaYooperASBDT]

I wanted Rodney to close from Opening Day. Looks like I may finally get my wish.

[monkeynuts]

He's right on up there with Mariano Rivera with the best closers in baseball.

[84 Lives!!!]

Choice:

E. We're stuck with him now because there's not an immediate better choice to replace him. However... the 1st chance DD gets to obtain _______, or bring up _______, or Rodney becomes effective again and earns the right to push Jones down to the 6th or 7th inning guy... the answer is no.

[Yoda]

I agree. A change is coming. Jones for mop-up. And that's it. He's awful. I bet at least 4 or 5 pitchers in our minors could pitch better than him.

[dt35456884]

**** no.

[DaYooperASBDT]

And while we are at it, send Bobby Seay packing. Spurling is ten times better. Even Ledezma would be a better option than Seay.

[potthole]

I liked him at the beginning of the year. I liked him even after his first couple of shaky saves, telling myself he was just a bit rusty after his time off due to injury. Now I think he should be banished to guarding the team plane at the airport, while the rest of the guys are off playing the games.

[TigersMeow79]

I support Jones, he throws up some nice meatballs that could serve a 3rd world country very well. Other than that I have no use for him.

[TigerCap]

"I turned on him early in the season" only because **** no! was not a choice.
Even when he gets a "save" he gets hit hard.
I don't even want him taking up a spot on the 25-man roster!!! Cut him please

[potthole]

I've got another thought... since we're paying Turd so much, we may as well use him for something, right? Before some upcoming home games, the Tigers are going to give fans the chance to take some BP down on the field, Turd could pitch that!

[mc_madness]

No.

[DaYooperASBDT]

He does make a decent batting practice pitcher, though.

[potthole]

I'm pretty sure some fans could take his pitches yard too, and you know that'd make someone's day.

[atomicrod]

Does anyone thing that if Jones was booted to Bobby Seay's mop up role that Ramon Colon could fill the 7th inning spot in the bull-pen that Zumaya has right now ?

I don't know myself, I'd like to see if he could focus on one inning and let it all go knowing he dosen't have to hold anything back. If he can't I think the Tigers are running a real risk of falling back hard.

I don't know how Leyland can put Jones out in a pressure situtation again and have any sort of credability. I don't know what was more amazing, the fact that Jones could not retire one hitter or the fact that only one of the Blue Jays even appeard to take a pitch. It was Smack. Next Pitch-Smack. Next Pitch-Smack. What a disaster.

[Yoda]

'Till death do us part!

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a171/xstat21x/Baseball/jones.jpg

[tigerbomb13]

'Till death do us part!

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a171/xstat21x/Baseball/jones.jpg

OOOH! Let's have a Todd Jones photoshop contest. This was my entry in case anybody missed it. :laugh:

http://motownsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=767773&postcount=86

[pyrotigers]

Free Chris Spurling!

[Yoda]

OOOH! Let's have a Todd Jones photoshop contest. This was my entry in case anybody missed it. :laugh:

http://motownsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=767773&postcount=86

Hah! Very nice.

[tigerbomb13]

Ok. What jokester said he should still be the closer?

[DTownPride]

I think we should probably make a change. Rodney or Zumaya is the question? My logical side would say Rodney, but I would like to see how Zumaya would pitch if given the opportunity to close consistently. Zumaya has had the hot hand as of late, as well.

[dt35456884]

I think we should probably make a change. Rodney or Zumaya is the question? My logical side would say Rodney, but I would like to see how Zumaya would pitch if given the opportunity to close consistently. Zumaya has had the hot hand as of late, as well.

I don't want Zumaya to be the closer, as he can be brought in to mow guys down for 2-3 innings if needed. That's an extremely valuable commodity to bring out of the bullpen. These days, a closer would never be stretched out like that.

[sabretooth]

I no longer support Jones. WTH, it's Rodney's time now.

[markmeista]

http://www.markmeista.com/tigers/leyland.jpg

[cruzer1]

Trade him to the Dodgers for Jonathon Broxton. They obviously feel he can't close.

[FloridaTigers]

Does anyone thing that if Jones was booted to Bobby Seay's mop up role that Ramon Colon could fill the 7th inning spot in the bull-pen that Zumaya has right now ?

I don't know myself, I'd like to see if he could focus on one inning and let it all go knowing he dosen't have to hold anything back. If he can't I think the Tigers are running a real risk of falling back hard.

I don't know how Leyland can put Jones out in a pressure situtation again and have any sort of credability. I don't know what was more amazing, the fact that Jones could not retire one hitter or the fact that only one of the Blue Jays even appeard to take a pitch. It was Smack. Next Pitch-Smack. Next Pitch-Smack. What a disaster.

Ew, Roman Colon? He's one of our worst bullpen pitchers.

[AlaskanTigersFan]

I HAVE HATED JONES FROM THE BEGINNING! You will not find a post where I said I liked Jones. I've said get rid of him For a LOOOOOOONG TIME! RELEASE HIM IMMEDIATELY!

[slim pickens]

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1506/coaster0pr.png

[djhutch]

Ok. What jokester said he should still be the closer?

Me, for one.

[TigerCap]

dj,
why?

[motownphilly]

Me for two... Here is my reasoning. Yes, he completely blew it yesterday...4 runs were his responsibility. But the other 3 were Rodney's... We wouldn't have been in that situation if Rodney hadn't fallen apart as well.

I think Jones should keep the closer roll, not because I like him...I am starting to dislike him more and more everyday...but because I don't think Zumaya is ready and I don't think Rodney is doing much better.

If I were going to experiment, I'd put Zumaya in there instead of Rodney. In my mind, Rodney only wins the job if he proves he can do it...not because we just want to make a change for changes sake with two slumping pitchers.

[Dawgs]

Rodney is as big a disaster as Jones if you ask me. I think Leylands patience has run thin with both. Jones throws up meatballs and Rodney cant throw strikes. We are in dire straights with our bullpen atm. We have lost 9 of 12 and 4 of those losses came because the pen has been awful.

[NJ Jackal]

Maybe he can get released so he can go back to his volunteer fire fighter duties in New Hampshire and back to the diner and making his male "friends" delicious Johnny Cakes.

[Kamakzie]

Todd Jones is good.... when he's pitching to my fantasy players.

[WilLedezma41]

And while we are at it, send Bobby Seay packing. Spurling is ten times better. Even Ledezma would be a better option than Seay.


LEDEZMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

[eastside billee]

I honestly think last night should be the last straw.

[SpartanValor]

Rodney is as big a disaster as Jones if you ask me. I think Leylands patience has run thin with both. Jones throws up meatballs and Rodney cant throw strikes. We are in dire straights with our bullpen atm. We have lost 9 of 12 and 4 of those losses came because the pen has been awful.


ERA WHIP BAA
2.86 1.09 .146
7.29 1.67 .348


I'm pretty sure one is a bigger disaster than the other.

[Oblong]

i wonder if Dombrowski would have signed JOnes if he was told that the team would be fighting with the best record in baseball in mid june.

[84 Lives!!!]

i wonder if Dombrowski would have signed JOnes if he was told that the team would be fighting with the best record in baseball in mid june.

Maybe he would have fought harder (paid more $$$) to sign BJ Ryan.

[keystone]

Biff,
I propose you standardize the headings on threads such as these so that we don't keep repeating them and that they don't show up in other discussions. Maybe something like - RAGE AGAINST! xxxx (Todd Jones, Rob Parker etc..)

[Greenwit]

A rolling average of Todd's BA against for the past few years (red lines represent season average):

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs%5C436_pitcher_daily_6_full_20060609.png

The rollercoaster in action......note that things started to go south at the end of last year.

[TigerPride]

To bring Todd Jones back to Detroit after getting rid of his rollercoaster act once before was completely stupid. Most everyone on this board knew this had bad move written all over it. Now after getting rid of Higginson's bad contract, we have Young's & Percival's for the remaining year. Although not as bad moneywise, now we have another year of bad contract remaining on Todd Jones.

Revamp this team now or pi$$ away the good start.

Make Zumaya the closer and put Rodney on notice to get his act together as the set-up man or he can go the route of Franklyn German. Make Jones mop up games that probably can't be won or loss. Give the young arms the opportunity to step up and they will. Surely they can't do any worse.

[Motor City Sonics]

So, as of 11:15am on Saturday June 10, 2006 there are 9 of you that can qualify as profoundly stupid.

[rhino]

Franklyn German is available.

[DET Mr Malefic]

Franklyn German is available.

He's had a better season than Jones, so far.

[TigersMeow79]

Franklyn German is available.

Scott Sauerbeck is available he's better than Bobby Seay.

[TigerCap]

You know, I think teams thinking they have to have one "CLOSER" is stupid. Leave a pitcher in there a little longer if he's getting the job done - I've been frustrated when Rodney pitches a 1-2-3 inning, and then gets pulled. Why was he pulled? Because it was a "SAVE OPPORTUNITY", and Jones is the "CLOSER". We'd be better to have a closer team depending on the opponent and situation. Forget the mindset that a closer is needed.

[Ron Burgandy]

There is no way anyone could reasonably support his performance to date. However, I'm a bottom line guy, and in my mind Rodney has now blown 3 saves (first game in Baltimore, Tuesday night in Chicago, last night), while Jones has only blown 2 saves (middle game in Minnesota, last Friday night vs. Boston). Granted, Jones has lost two other games (last night, the Tuesday night Yankees game), and has been shaky in some of his saves.

But the bottom line for me is that Rodney has pretty much cost the team just as many games as Jones has. Rodney, sans breaking ball, is quite hittable. Perhaps he's a better solution than Jones at this point, but neither are world beaters. I don't feel comfortable with either on the mound, never have, and probably never will.

[DET Mr Malefic]

You know, I think teams thinking they have to have one "CLOSER" is stupid. Leave a pitcher in there a little longer if he's getting the job done - I've been frustrated when Rodney pitches a 1-2-3 inning, and then gets pulled. Why was he pulled? Because it was a "SAVE OPPORTUNITY", and Jones is the "CLOSER". We'd be better to have a closer team depending on the opponent and situation. Forget the mindset that a closer is needed.

While I agree with this, it's a baseball-wide problem and I don't think it's likely to stop with Jim Leyland.

[dt35456884]

Basically the only role Jones succeeds at with any regularity (supposedly this is what his dwindling supporters hang their hat on) is being brought into the 9th inning with a 3-run lead. Even then, it's a nailbiter.

When the margin for error is slim, he cannot safely be depended on. Need some important outs in a non-9th inning, non-save situation? Forget about it. He's a tinderbox.

So again, we're left with a guy who has really only "gotten the job done" with any consistency when "getting the job done" means holding a 3-run lead in the 9th inning. Wow, what a valuable arm to have in the bullpen. Sounds like a role even Al Levine could handle.

[tiger337]

But the bottom line for me is that Rodney has pretty much cost the team just as many games as Jones has. Rodney, sans breaking ball, is quite hittable. Perhaps he's a better solution than Jones at this point, but neither are world beaters. I don't feel comfortable with either on the mound, never have, and probably never will.

I'm not really comfortable with Rodney closing games in tight situations either. The difference between Rodney and Jones is that when Rodney has his great stuff (which this year has been more often than not), he is dominant. Jones is never dominant. He throws it up there and you hope they don't hit it too hard. You can't trust Jones even on his good nights.

The bottom line argument which all of Jones' supporters use only works looking backwards. He has "done the job" as often as Rodney but there is mothing about his stats or the way he has pitched that suggests that Jones can be trusted to do well in any situation in any future major league game.

[Franks151]

Rodney, sans breaking ball, is quite hittable.

Then why is his BAA so low?

[DaYooperASBDT]

A rolling average of Todd's BA against for the past few years (red lines represent season average):

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs%5C436_pitcher_daily_6_full_20060609.png

The rollercoaster in action......note that things started to go south at the end of last year.


Looks like Todd is having his period ....
:wink:

[Microline133]

Seriously, how is it that 13 people believe he should still be the closer? Did 13 of his family members log on?

[Corky]

Maybe Jones made one of those deals . . .

http://media-cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/gaetano/satan.jpg

[dt35456884]

Is Rocky Biddle available?

[DaYooperASBDT]

Seriously, how is it that 13 people believe he should still be the closer? Did 13 of his family members log on?

Groupies.

[Casimir]

I'm sorry, I cannot hear a word from those of you that kept pointing to Jones' '05 season as proof that this was a good signing, but chose to ignore the seasons before that. Could you please speak up?

[Casimir]

Seriously, how is it that 13 people believe he should still be the closer? Did 13 of his family members log on?

Must be the fans of other teams that use this forum. You know, DezNuts, GoKitties, etc...

[caseyo4]

I think Todd Jones' issues this year are 100% cerebral. He's outthinking himself right now. He has the same stuff he had last year, and whether Zumaya takes over remains to be seen, but either way, Jones can still contribute.

Outside of that, I think there is not nearly enough respect for him as a Tiger and person. I find him to be a genuinely sincere, good guy, who respects this team and it's history. I also think its cool that we have a player on our roster that writes national and local columns. So while you can be unhappy with his performance lately, don't make him out to be the devil incarnate for god sakes...

[One Man's Fool]

I am rooting for Todd Jones to have 40 to 45 saves this year for the Detroit Tigers.

I don't think Jim Leyland cares what people on this or any other message board think, and I don't think Jones is going to lose his job as the closer, so I don't find it worthwhile to scream for it to happen.

He is better than he's been the past week or two. He is probably not as good as his numbers made him look in 2005. He does not deserve the fans' hate. But there's always someone who has to be the whipping boy. If it isn't Higginson, it's Pena. If it's not him, it's Young. If it isn't him, it's Todd Jones. If he gets things straightened out, it will be Shelton or Monroe.

Nothing you can do is ever gonna change it.

[thewave84]

Seriously, how is it that 13 people believe he should still be the closer? Did 13 of his family members log on?

Ok, I will answer for myself - I can't speak for the other 12.

Right now I think Jones should still be the closer because the best chance for the Tigers to have their best possible year is for Jones to revert to his form of last year. I know that we wasn't all that great last year and, in fact, he hasn't been all that great any time in his career. But, based on last year he is still capable of being a moderately effective closer. Hopefully if Leyland sticks with him he will do that again.

The other options just don't have as much upside, imo. I think Rodney is better as a setup man than closer (and yes, I think he is a substantially better pitcher than Jones). However, Rodney could implode as a closer - he has shown flashes of wildness and has been ineffective himself in 2 of his last 3 outings.

Zumaya is, imo, the most dominant guy in the bullpen. I think that Leyland is using Zumaya exactly right, which is to bring him in whenever a strikeout is most valuable. Also, Zumaya is really young and not used to failure. I would hate to have him become the closer and hit a rough stretch where the media and fans can start making a big deal of how many blown saves he has. He is still struggling with getting his curveball over and frankly, if put in the closer role he might become even more dependant on his fastball.

If anyone on this team is going to be heavily scrutinized and criticized as a lousy closer, I want it to be Jones, because number 1, he should be able to deal with it and number 2, even if he becomes a headcase, who cares?

Having said all that, if, in the next week or so, Jones blows 2 more games and Rodney is able to demonstrate that he is effective once again (imo, that mechanical flaw stuff is just talk until we see in-game evidence) then I would switch Rodney and Jones.

[Microline133]

Right now I think Jones should still be the closer because the best chance for the Tigers to have their best possible year is for Jones to revert to his form of last year.
So in the mean time, the Tigers should jeopardize their chance at winning close games by trotting him out there....hoping he reverts to last year's form?

Frankly, I'd rather he revert to last year's form while pitching in a less-critical role....then if he actually does make that miraculous transition, he can begin to pitch in high-leverage situations again.

I don't see how trotting him out there, hoping he figures it out is doing what's best for the team.

[thewave84]

So in the mean time, the Tigers should jeopardize their chance at winning close games by trotting him out there....hoping he reverts to last year's form?


Well, no. If I thought it jeoparidized their chances at winning close games I wouldn't want to do it.

Everyone wants Jones out but how would you guys rearrange things? If the roles are changed who do you want as the new closer, new setup guy, etc? Would Jones still be on the team or would you flat-out release him? I'd like to hear suggestions beyond just removing Jones as closer.

[Brian]

Why yes. As long as he pitches for my team.








Is that too "PC?"

[Casimir]

Zumaya is the stopper. If there's a middle inning jam, he comes in. Walker for the lefties. Rodney is the 8th inning P, and Jones is the closer. I think the emphasis here, though, should be on stopper, not necessarily closer.

I'd rather have Zumaya or Rodney enter the game in the middle of an inning with runners on base. They're better Ps, and more likely to K the hitter. Jones is better suited to opening an inning rather than stopping a potential scoring threat. I think this is a case of people putting too much emphasis on the save stat.

Now, having said this, any P with an ERA close to 7 is not doing his job regardless of role.

[DaYooperASBDT]

In a perfect world, Jonesy quits exploding and saves 30 of the next 31 or something crazy like that. And I hope that happens, that is the best case scenario.

But I just don't want Jones to be kept at closer if he continues to struggle. Even Brad Lidge, one of the best in the business, recently spent a while in middle relief due to being ineffective. Let's not have any sacred cows, or panic moves either. But so far the evidence points to the need for a change. I'm hoping Jones' win last night does help his confidence ....

[hoosierdaddy]

I am rooting for Todd Jones to have 40 to 45 saves this year for the Detroit Tigers.

I don't think Jim Leyland cares what people on this or any other message board think, and I don't think Jones is going to lose his job as the closer, so I don't find it worthwhile to scream for it to happen.

He is better than he's been the past week or two. He is probably not as good as his numbers made him look in 2005. He does not deserve the fans' hate. But there's always someone who has to be the whipping boy. If it isn't Higginson, it's Pena. If it's not him, it's Young. If it isn't him, it's Todd Jones. If he gets things straightened out, it will be Shelton or Monroe.

Nothing you can do is ever gonna change it.

Man is that ever true. So the guy's having a bad stretch. It's no reason to "hate" the guy. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Detroit fans always have to have someone to complain about. You are right, there is always someone to complain about. If the Tigers go on to lose ten games in a row people will be hollering "Fire Jim now!". At this time I am just enjoying the season.

Note: I know that not all fans are always complaining about someone.

[sabretooth]

It does bug me that people seem to root against players just because they think that they "suck". I know the theory is that if they are bad enough they'll be replaced, but I can't see the value in booing a player on your own team unless he's done something morally objectionable. Call me old-fashioned.

[shauntacular]

jones has a great strat-o-matic card for this season, but next season's is going to suck. I can't believe I traded Justin Duchscherer and Gavin Floyd for him and Jose Cruz Jr. :dead:

[DaYooperASBDT]

jones has a great strat-o-matic card for this season, but next season's is going to suck. I can't believe I traded Justin Duchscherer and Gavin Floyd for him and Jose Cruz Jr. :dead:

I can't believe you traded for Jose Cruz Jr. !! Almost as bad as my trading for Preston Wilson :dead: :dead: :dead:

[shauntacular]

Cruz crushes lefties in this year's set - he's a good left fielder to use against them since Crawford's card isn't hot against LHP. Duchsherer isn't all that special, and Floyd might just be a bum, so this wasn't that bad because it helped me for this year. Once I traded for Griffey, Cruz became significantly less valuable however.

[Corky]

It does bug me that people seem to root against players just because they think that they "suck". I know the theory is that if they are bad enough they'll be replaced, but I can't see the value in booing a player on your own team unless he's done something morally objectionable. Call me old-fashioned.

I believe in the literature on the subject it is referred to as Greggism. The art of sucking at a level that astounds all persons.

[Tyrus]

I agree with Jim Leyland's assessment of the subject: Todd Jones does the job most of the time, but when he blows one, it's a big deal because it usually costs us the game. But when he does his job...why, that's what he's supposed to do, and nobody talks about that.

To that end, I see there has been no mention here about Jones' stellar two-inning relief stretch in the 13-inning game the other night. Hmmmmmmm....maybe Leyland is right, eh?

[Biff Mayhem]

It's the manner in how he does his job. When he does it even with the desirable "save" he still does it poorly.

[tiger337]

I agree with Jim Leyland's assessment of the subject: Todd Jones does the job most of the time, but when he blows one, it's a big deal because it usually costs us the game. But when he does his job...why, that's what he's supposed to do, and nobody talks about that.



The problem is that he doesn't do his job efficently and this leads me to lack confidence about his ability to get the job done in future games. It's not a matter of Leyland being right or wrong. I'm not sure that moving him to a different role and switching Rodney and Zumaya from roles in which they seem comfortable will solve the problem. All I know is that Jones is not very good and Leyland knows that too.

[TigerCap]

Even when he "succeeds" he lets a couple guys on. C'mon - One (two at most) frickin' innings!

[motownphilly]

I must admit, I am teetering and considering changing my vote (wish I could do that)...but I still don't see Rodney as the closer, and I think they may have other plans for Zumaya. I sense DD getting on the phone looking for another closer for deadline consideration...it could be as important a decision as finding a LH hitter, if not more. It could be the first test of Mr. I's pocketbook.

[tigersfan25]

Maybe Jones made one of those deals . . .

http://media-cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/gaetano/satan.jpg
Too bad he made that deal last year...

[hoosierdaddy]

People are saying that Jones doesn't do his job? Isn't his job to get the friggin' ball over the friggin' plate? Anybody can step on the mound and throw the ball into the stands but a pro gets the ball over the plate. If the batter hits it, he hits it. That leaves four guys in the infield and three guys in the outfield with the opportunity to do THEIR jobs. Guess what? They DIDN'T!

I was at the game last night and sure, they were hitting his pitches. But the other guys on the field should have done their jobs and put the guys out. The other guys on the field should have done their jobs and scored some runs themselves when they had the chance. I think this is nothing but a case of angry fans lashing out a pitcher instead of at the whole team. 'nuff said.

p.s. Bonderman was getting smacked around at the start of the game. Couple of base hits and a bunch of foul balls. He did end up pitching very well and it's a shame his team (not just Jones) stunk up the joint.

[tiger337]

People are saying that Jones doesn't do his job? Isn't his job to get the friggin' ball over the friggin' plate? Anybody can step on the mound and throw the ball into the stands but a pro gets the ball over the plate. If the batter hits it, he hits it. That leaves four guys in the infield and three guys in the outfield with the opportunity to do THEIR jobs. Guess what? They DIDN'T!



One of the problems with Jones is that he never strikes anybody out and the ball is always in play. That's not a good quality for a closer.

A lot of blame should go to the offense last night but I don't really understand the part about the fielders. Which fielders didn't do their job last night?

[motownphilly]

One mistake I think Leyland made that hurt Jones is...the first two batters in the 12th connected with sharp line drives. That's all I needed to see to know Jones was ready for the showers. But we've seen Todd Jones for many years...this is Leyland's first year with him. He may still feel Jones is the type of guy that can pitch himself out of trouble in a second inning of work.

[pyrotigers]

Todd Jones didn't exactly "get it over the plate" when he nailed a guy on an 0-2 count with 2 down.

[hoosierdaddy]

Todd Jones didn't exactly "get it over the plate" when he nailed a guy on an 0-2 count with 2 down.

Did I say he did? No. However, other pitches he DID get over the plate. If you expect perfection all the time and feel players can't make mistakes (baseball is a game of failure by the way), then why don't YOU get on a major league team and do better?

[hoosierdaddy]

One of the problems with Jones is that he never strikes anybody out and the ball is always in play. That's not a good quality for a closer.

A lot of blame should go to the offense last night but I don't really understand the part about the fielders. Which fielders didn't do their job last night?

Well, you have a point there. Perhaps Jones shouldn't be the closer.

As for the fielders, I meant that it is a team game. Pitchers are going to be hit and it is the fielders' jobs to make the outs. They didn't. When base hits get through it means they didn't do their jobs. Their job is to stop the ball from getting through.

[One Man's Fool]

One of the problems with Jones is that he never strikes anybody out and the ball is always in play. That's not a good quality for a closer.

Why is it that closers have to strike people out but other pitchers can get outs any way they like?

[hoosierdaddy]

Why is it that closers have to strike people out but other pitchers can get outs any way they like?

Good question. I guess they just expect closers to be strikeout masters, lights-out...see ya, kinda guys. Maybe because they typically only play one inning so they are expected to throw strikes more consistently, thus get the strikeouts.

[tiger337]

Why is it that closers have to strike people out but other pitchers can get outs any way they like?

It's good for all pitchers to get strike outs. I think it's a little more important for closers (or relief pitchers in general) because they should be able to come in with runners on base and strike somebody out rather than risk a bloop RBI single.
Also, closers only have to pitch one inning so they don't need to hold anything back. Whereas Verlander might need to pace himself and save his best stuff for
key spots, Zumaya can just go all out and blow people away. I think your best relief pitchers should have the ability to strike a lot of guys out. They have less margin for error than starters so it's good if they don't widen the margin by putting a lot of bals in play.

[One Man's Fool]

It's good for all pitchers to get strike outs. I think it's a little more important for closers (or relief pitchers in general) because they should be able to come in with runners on base and strike somebody out rather than risk a bloop RBI single.
Also, closers only have to pitch one inning so they don't need to hold anything back. Whereas Verlander might need to pace himself and save his best stuff for
key spots, Zumaya can just go all out and blow people away. I think your best relief pitchers should have the ability to strike a lot of guys out. They have less margin for error than starters so it's good if they don't widen the margin by putting a lot of bals in play.

That would have made more sense in the '80s, when closers were actually used that way - as firemen. Now, when they pretty much come in to start the ninth inning, and in save situations only, I don't really see what difference it makes, as long as they get the outs they need to get.

[dt35456884]

Now, when they pretty much come in to start the ninth inning, and in save situations only

Well, good closers can do more than this, and most do, even in this era of more specialized pitching. Even okay closers can come into the 8th inning if the team needs them to and then finish the 9th. Also, they can give a solid inning or two in a tie ballgame in the 9th inning or into extras.

Todd Jones has merely been shaky but successful at coming into the 9th and holding a two or three run lead. That's the best thing you can really say about him. That's the best thing he's accomplished this season. In other words, he's practically useless. Almost any fringe major leaguer can do that. Even John Ennis could do that right now.

[dt35456884]

If saves were arbitrarily defined so that you had to hold up to a six-run lead in the 9th inning (rather than the standard three runs or less), and Jones had a 14.54 ERA and 3 strikeouts while "saving" 10 of 12, there are people on this board who would support him because he "did his job" in all but 2 games.

[Atom]

Why is it that closers have to strike people out but other pitchers can get outs any way they like?

Low BAA is a better evaluator of closing ability than is a high K total.

Unfortuntely TJ is pathetic in both regards.

I couldn't care less if Todd had failed to register even a single strikeout IF he was getting guys out at a good clip...but a .350 BAA and a 1.62 WHIP are painful to watch transpire.

Someone said that a closer's job is to get the ball over the plate? What a crock of BS. lol. That's like saying a hitter's job is to get the bat on the ball. Doesn't matter if he pops out or not...just get the bat on the ball. Yeah right.:disappnt:

No a closer's job is to GET GUYS OUT! I could pitch the ball over the plate and in turn opponents would hit .800 off of me but then again that's why I'm not a closer. Nor should Jonesy be...at least not right now.

[tiger337]

That would have made more sense in the '80s, when closers were actually used that way - as firemen. Now, when they pretty much come in to start the ninth inning, and in save situations only, I don't really see what difference it makes, as long as they get the outs they need to get.

They are still occasionally used that way and I believe they should be used more that way but you are right that they usually are not. It's nice if they can get strikeouts in the cases they are used that way. I'll agree though that there is not as much urgency for a closer to get a lot of strike outs today relative to starters. Ideally, they both get a lot of strikeouts.

Another point that I'll make is that a starter gives you durability and also has a variety of pitches which he spreads throughout the game. He's not going to use his best stuff on every batter. Instead, he'll pace himself and save his best stuff for key moments. You can expect him to pitch to contact at certain points in the game. The closer, on the other hand, only pitches one inning and has little margin for error. He needs to go all out on every pitch. If his best stuff results in 7 strikeouts in 26 innings, then he must not have very good stuff. If a pitcher can only pitch one inning and all he can to is get the ball over and let his fielders do the work, how useful is that?

[tiger337]

Low BAA is a better evaluator of closing ability than is a high K total.



But low BAA against is largely a function of getting a lot of strikeouts. If you get a lot of strikeouts and the ball doesn't get put in play much, you'll have a good BAA.

[hoosierdaddy]

Low BAA is a better evaluator of closing ability than is a high K total.

Unfortuntely TJ is pathetic in both regards.

I couldn't care less if Todd had failed to register even a single strikeout IF he was getting guys out at a good clip...but a .350 BAA and a 1.62 WHIP are painful to watch transpire.

Someone said that a closer's job is to get the ball over the plate? What a crock of BS. lol. That's like saying a hitter's job is to get the bat on the ball. Doesn't matter if he pops out or not...just get the bat on the ball. Yeah right.:disappnt:

No a closer's job is to GET GUYS OUT! I could pitch the ball over the plate and in turn opponents would hit .800 off of me but then again that's why I'm not a closer. Nor should Jonesy be...at least not right now.

That was me. You got a problem with it? A pitcher's job is to get the ball over the plate or he will walk every batter he faces. Duh. Pitchers are going to get hit and it is the DEFENCE'S job to catch the flyball or prevent line drives from getting through. It is not the same as saying the batter's job is to get the bat on the ball even if it is a pop up. His job is to hit the ball where someone can't get it. There is no comparison whatsoever. Next?

[hoosierdaddy]

If you get a lot of strikeouts you are throwing more pitches than you need to. Strikeouts are awesome, I know. But throwing pitches that cause groundballs or popups are good as well (and economical).

[hoosierdaddy]

If saves were arbitrarily defined so that you had to hold up to a six-run lead in the 9th inning (rather than the standard three runs or less), and Jones had a 14.54 ERA and 3 strikeouts while "saving" 10 of 12, there are people on this board who would support him because he "did his job" in all but 2 games.

I would. The save would mean a win. Team wins and losses are all that matters. Individual pitcher's ERA's mean jack squat.

[tiger337]

If you get a lot of strikeouts you are throwing more pitches than you need to. Strikeouts are awesome, I know. But throwing pitches that cause groundballs or popups are good as well (and economical).

That is actually one reason why you might expect closers to get more strikeouts than starters. They don't need to be as economical.

[hoosierdaddy]

That is actually one reason why you might expect closers to get more strikeouts than starters. They don't need to be as economical.

Yes, that is a good point. It's also entertaining for the fans. :happy:

[dt35456884]

I would. The save would mean a win. Team wins and losses are all that matters. Individual pitcher's ERA's mean jack squat.

You must have been torn up about Doug Creek leaving the organization.

[monkeynuts]

Today I was a huge fan of his. He didn't pitch. :cheeky:

[hoosierdaddy]

You must have been torn up about Doug Creek leaving the organization.

Nope. Why?

[dt35456884]

Nope. Why?

He was more effective than Todd Jones has been, he had zero losses, and he had zero blown saves.

[tigersrok]

I would. The save would mean a win. Team wins and losses are all that matters. Individual pitcher's ERA's mean jack squat.

Why are you defending Jones then? He's contributed 5 losses to this team, the most of any pitcher on the staff.

If you get a lot of strikeouts you are throwing more pitches than you need to. Strikeouts are awesome, I know. But throwing pitches that cause groundballs or popups are good as well (and economical).


You're the first person I have heard argue that a lack of strikeouts is a good thing for a closer. You want somebody who can strike batters out to get out of jams and not risk bloop hits falling in when there is so little margin for error. Besides, he isn't not striking out people because he wants to be economical; he's not striking out people because he's throwing meatballs up there that are getting clobbered by the opposition, even a lot of the outs he gets.

I'm just amazed that there is anyone who has voted for keeping Jones as closer and can find ways to defend his god awful performance. If he wasn't making the money he was, he would have been released by now. He's been that awful.

[One Man's Fool]

They are still occasionally used that way and I believe they should be used more that way but you are right that they usually are not. It's nice if they can get strikeouts in the cases they are used that way. I'll agree though that there is not as much urgency for a closer to get a lot of strike outs today relative to starters. Ideally, they both get a lot of strikeouts.

Another point that I'll make is that a starter gives you durability and also has a variety of pitches which he spreads throughout the game. He's not going to use his best stuff on every batter. Instead, he'll pace himself and save his best stuff for key moments. You can expect him to pitch to contact at certain points in the game. The closer, on the other hand, only pitches one inning and has little margin for error. He needs to go all out on every pitch. If his best stuff results in 7 strikeouts in 26 innings, then he must not have very good stuff. If a pitcher can only pitch one inning and all he can to is get the ball over and let his fielders do the work, how useful is that?

It's very useful if the fielders are only being asked to field harmless ground balls, medium-deep fly balls and popups. Obviously that's not what Jones has been inducing the last couple of weeks, but not all contact is equal - I'm sure you would agree.

I don't quarrel with your larger point - at least in theory - which I think is that strikeouts are the best possible outcome of an at-bat from a pitcher's perspective, and while a starter can't be expected to strike out too high a percentage of his opponents because of the need to pace himself, the closer has no such excuse.

But that doesn't mean that strikeouts are needed in the ninth inning any more than they're needed in the first, unless of course the tying run is standing on third base with nobody out. Yeah. Then you need a strikeout. But as we've agreed, closers are rarely brought in anymore when that situation already exists.

Three groundballs or three long fly balls will get the job done.

[Corky]

It's very useful if the fielders are only being asked to field harmless ground balls, medium-deep fly balls and popups. Obviously that's not what Jones has been inducing the last couple of weeks, but not all contact is equal - I'm sure you would agree.

I don't quarrel with your larger point - at least in theory - which I think is that strikeouts are the best possible outcome of an at-bat from a pitcher's perspective, and while a starter can't be expected to strike out too high a percentage of his opponents because of the need to pace himself, the closer has no such excuse.

But that doesn't mean that strikeouts are needed in the ninth inning any more than they're needed in the first, unless of course the tying run is standing on third base with nobody out. Yeah. Then you need a strikeout. But as we've agreed, closers are rarely brought in anymore when that situation already exists.

Three groundballs or three long fly balls will get the job done.

Not with a one-run lead and a runner on third. Strikeouts are the most effective form of outs. Note that I didn't say efficient but effective.

[One Man's Fool]

Not with a one-run lead and a runner on third. Strikeouts are the most effective form of outs. Note that I didn't say efficient but effective.

Right, but I made this distinction in my post. Most of the time, closers come in at the start of the ninth inning, so there are no runners on base. If the tying run is on third, you probably do need a strikeout (unless there are two outs, of course).

[hoosierdaddy]

He was more effective than Todd Jones has been, he had zero losses, and he had zero blown saves.

So?

The only reason I have been speaking up for Jones is because people took this too far in my opinion. Especially after I heard that dude at the stadium last night.

[hoosierdaddy]

Why are you defending Jones then? He's contributed 5 losses to this team, the most of any pitcher on the staff.

Because I was talking about "team" losses. I look at it as a team effort. Pitcher's win/loss records are irrelevant in my opinion. The way I see it, is the team contributed 5 losses to themselves when Jones has pitched.


You're the first person I have heard argue that a lack of strikeouts is a good thing for a closer. You want somebody who can strike batters out to get out of jams and not risk bloop hits falling in when there is so little margin for error. Besides, he isn't not striking out people because he wants to be economical; he's not striking out people because he's throwing meatballs up there that are getting clobbered by the opposition, even a lot of the outs he gets.

I never said a lack of strikeouts is a good thing for a closer. Not at all.

I'm just amazed that there is anyone who has voted for keeping Jones as closer and can find ways to defend his god awful performance. If he wasn't making the money he was, he would have been released by now. He's been that awful.

I haven't voted for Jones. I didn't vote. I'm not looking to just defend him. I'm trying to make some of you think. The pitcher is not solely responsible for the final score and honestly, I think some of you should know that by now.



bolded for ease of reading

[dt35456884]

The pitcher is not solely responsible for the final score

Thanks. Every single member on this board knows this. Every one.

Oh, and one other thing.

Todd Jones is horrible.

[Corky]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/jklapp/churchsign.jpg

[sabretooth]

As useless as saves generally are, I do think that when you compare a large enough period of time, and look at the game logs, you can use the save pct. as part of a useful comparison of closer performance, even if save pct. is not predictive.

Save pct. in baseball would never be a useful rate stat like the save pct. of a goalie (they face so many shots in such frequency), nor of OPS (which has been exhaustively analyzed in relation to the conribution of individual players performance vs. run production).

All of that being said, I thought that Jones pitched pretty well last year and did pretty well through the latter part of May this year, where he promptly fell apart and has been largely hideous.

I don't believe in dumping a guy because of a slump, but you can't afford to have a slumping player cost you 4-5 games over a two week stretch and not take action. Jones needs to be detached from any critical role for a while and brought in for easy situations and confidence-builders for a while -- not just for the team, but for himself and the fans.

[tiger337]

As useless as saves generally are, I do think that when you compare a large enough period of time, and look at the game logs, you can use the save pct. as part of a useful comparison of closer performance, even if save pct. is not predictive.



I agree with this. A closer with a good save percentage has done his job (an overrated job but still a job). The problem with Jones is that his more predictive stats are awful which suggests that his save percentage will drop in the future.

[hoosierdaddy]

Thanks. Every single member on this board knows this. Every one.

Oh, and one other thing.

Todd Jones is horrible.

Oh really? The posts from some of the members here would indicate otherwise.

That's your opinion. I just happen to think he's in a bad slump. Until it's proven otherwise, I will just believe that you go along with the crowd and forget that players have slumps (and also believe that pitchers are solely responsible for wins and losses). Who will you say is horrible today? Manny Ramirez for striking out last night? :shocked:

[jctigerfan1968]

Yep I support jones for any trade we can get for him.