Todd Jones will NOT be the closer

[gamtchll]

http://fantasysports.yahoo.com/analysis/news?slug=bf-mlbmailbag_041906&prov=yhoo&type=lgns&league=fantasy/mlb

Or so says this enlightened writer.


"Chris, boy, do I ever feel your pain. In two of my more competitive leagues, I, too, am stuck with four DL players. Push came to shove recently when I started falling in the standings. On both teams, I actually have Garciaparra, and I have Huff on one of them. Both players are still with me, but I did recently let go of DL guys Ian Kinsler – his bat was hot, but he didn't have much run production, and a thumb injury could mean he'll struggle to get right for a while after he returns – and Todd Jones – David Weathers was available, and I figured a closer (albeit a shaky one in a semi-committee) in the hand was better than Jones, who I don't see supplanting Fernando Rodney anytime soon."




Ummm sure.

[tigersrok]

I don't know if you posted this to shrug off what the writer wrote, but he is wrong. Jones will be the closer. They signed him to close because they were not comfortable with Rodney closing.

[gamtchll]

Yes, because this has not been mentioned at all by any local writers.

[tigersfan25]

I don't know if you posted this to shrug off what the writer wrote, but he is wrong. Jones will be the closer. They signed him to close because they were not comfortable with Rodney closing.
The main question I have after the first couple of weeks is whether or not this has changed... I think that it may have. Rodney has done quite well out there so far.

[estrepe1]

Rodney is the best pitcher for the closers job right now. Zumaya has the best stuff in the pen but Rodney is the best man for the closer role....

I hope they make the right move and slide Jonesy into the setup role.

[slim pickens]

Rodney blew as many saves as he had saves last year, he is not the best man for the job

[Dan Gilmore]

Rodney was also coming back from TJ surgery last year and had a longer warmup routine to protect his arm. His FB seems to be much quicker this year. That, coupled with the killer change makes him closer-worthy.

[spikesglaring]

Rodney blew as many saves as he had saves last year, he is not the best man for the job

He saved nine games in '05, while blowing six. And some of those blown saves were before he was the closer.

That was also last year. He wasn't as far removed from an arm injury as he is now. It's about this time after the surgery he had that a pitcher regains his full form. Which is why his '06 line looks like this:

6.2 IP, 3 H, 3 K, 0.00 ERA, 3 SV

[estrepe1]

As two have mentioned last season was his first back from TJ surgery so he was still in recovery from that. His fastball has much better zip on it this season as it is back up to the mid 90's and his change up is still absolutely nasty.

I think he has earned his closers role given how he has pitched in that role this season.

If they want to put Jones in there I won't complain but I would leave Rodney.

[slim pickens]

and when he starts to come down to reality this year and blows saves, everyone will say..."well he did just recently have tommy john surgery, lets give him time"

[Yoda]

and when he starts to come down to reality this year and blows saves, everyone will say..."well he did just recently have tommy john surgery, lets give him time"

No because he didn't just have it. It was in 2004. Last year that was a pretty legitimate excuse as it was his first year back. Why ignore that?

[djhutch]

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5082/news)

Apr 19 Jason Beck, of Tigers.MLB.com, reports Detroit Tigers CL Todd Jones (hamstring) threw more pitches Wednesday, April 19, and came out of it fine. He then went to the bullpen mound and practiced fielding grounders. Manager Jim Leyland told Jones he will throw one inning in a non-save situation to "get acclimated." Afterward, he should be ready to close again.

[Biff Mayhem]

7th Zumaya
8th Rodney
9th Jones

[estrepe1]

and when he starts to come down to reality this year and blows saves, everyone will say..."well he did just recently have tommy john surgery, lets give him time"

So you are saying you don't notice a change in quality in his pitches from last season to this one?

7th Zumaya
8th Rodney
9th Jones

Thats what it sounds like it will be to me.

[7kidzzz]

In today's News <or was it the Freep?>, Jones says that he will come back and pitch one game not as a closer. If he's on, then it's back to the closer role.

The 7th Zumaya
8th Rodney
9th Jones

lineup works for me, but then I was all in for the Farnsworth, Ugie and Percival one as well.

[spikesglaring]

and when he starts to come down to reality this year and blows saves, everyone will say..."well he did just recently have tommy john surgery, lets give him time"

You just don't get it, do you? It was no surprise to anyone that he wasn't as effective last season as he had the potential to become. Everyone knew he had came back from the surgery quickly and probably wouldn't have his best stuff yet. However, he was still an effective closer when called upon most of the time.

This year, the time frame it takes the injury to fully heal has passed. As E said above, his pitches (especially his fastball) are sharper than last year and where they should be when he's healthy. Therefore, there's no reason for anyone here to blame any troubles that could occur with him on the surgery now (since most people on this board are very knowledgable).

[Yoda]

I think most of his blown saves came in non-closer situations. That stat is meaningless. He can come in with the bases loaded. If he gives up a hit, the run isn't charged to him, but I believe he gets the blown save. If you look at the rest of his numbers, he didn't pitch that bad and had a decent ERA.

[Tressel=God]

I have only been able to watch the games against the indians....has he thrown his slider much this spring, or is just fastball/change now?

[dt35456884]

Getting a little more depth in the bullpen will be nice, as is pushing Zumaya back to an earlier part of the game. Still, I hate to think of him as a one-inning guy. Hopefully he'll get opportunities to do some longer relief, like 5th-6th-7th or 6th-7th-8th.

[zachcadillac]

Also, saves and blown saves are terrible ways to gauge any pitching performance.

[chasfh]

Also, saves and blown saves are terrible ways to gauge any pitching performance.

Thank you! You just made a fan. Actually, you can add wins, losses and complete games to that as well.

[Ranger]

The 2001 season still has a bad taste in my mouth. Jones can be set-up or just middle relief. What does it matter on who closes games as long as long as they rack up the Save and the Tigers win the game.
Rodney has been great in doing his job - it sucks for Jones to lose his "position" due to injury but it all comes down to them doing the same thing except in different innings.
Thank you! You just made a fan. Actually, you can add wins, losses and complete games to that as well.
I'd argue complete games is a decent way to measure performances.

In order to be out there for 9 innings worth of work, you probably didn't give up many runs or hits and were pretty consistent with your pitch count.

[chasfh]

Rodney is the best pitcher for the closers job right now. Zumaya has the best stuff in the pen but Rodney is the best man for the closer role....

I hope they make the right move and slide Jonesy into the setup role.

Nope -- won't happen. The Tigers did not just shovel several million dollars into Rollercoaster's pocket to slide him into a setup role. They won't care whether Rodney has 14 saves and a buck-twenty ERA -- when Jones comes off the DL, he's closing.

As much as (or more than) a team considers actual field performance in their decision-making, they consider level of investment. When a team sinks seven or eight figures into a property, they will give that property every chance to pay out, until it finally becomes apparent after months or years of below-replacement performance that the property is a sunk cost.

This is totally related to the Chris Shelton story. The Pirates took Shelton in the 33rd round and gave him a dozen baseballs and a $50 gift certificate to Outback Steakhouse as a signing bonus. So when it "became apparent" that Shelton "couldn't play defense", and he struggled a bit in 100 at bats in Altoona, out he went -- despite his 1000+ OPS in college and two different minor leagues.

Money clouds decision-making. It's a law of nature.

[chasfh]

I'd argue complete games is a decent way to measure performances.

In order to be out there for 9 innings worth of work, you probably didn't give up many runs or hits and were pretty consistent with your pitch count.

Can't agree. Complete games are basically managerial discretion, based in large part on whether he can pad his closer's overhyped saves stat. Vast majority of quality starts, or even Level 1 (dominant) starts, do not end up in complete games, even when the pitcher comes into the ninth under 100 pitches.

It's a bogus stat tied up in misplaced machismo, and the only discussion it generates when it comes up is how today's pitchers are such pussies compared to the manly ironmen of yesteryear.

[mckibbka]

some of you have said zumaya pitch the 7th, rodney the 8th and jonesy the 9th. sounds good to me. but zumaya seems to have shown he can pitch 2 innings...so if he could pitch the 6th and 7th, we'd only need 5 innings out of our starters...not saying we won't take more innings, but hey, this is a good problem to have.

[slim pickens]

I think most of his blown saves came in non-closer situations. That stat is meaningless. He can come in with the bases loaded. If he gives up a hit, the run isn't charged to him, but I believe he gets the blown save. If you look at the rest of his numbers, he didn't pitch that bad and had a decent ERA.
you can only have a blown save in a closer role, that stat isnt meaningless, it shows if you can come in and shut someone down, if the bases are loaded, you shouldnt give up that hit whether the run is charged to you or not, i cant continue giving any of these tigers a free pass, they have had one for the last 15 years.

[spikesglaring]

you can only have a blown save in a closer role, that stat isnt meaningless, it shows if you can come in and shut someone down, if the bases are loaded, you shouldnt give up that hit whether the run is charged to you or not, i cant continue giving any of these tigers a free pass, they have had one for the last 15 years.

Wrong again. Middle relievers & set-up men regularly blow saves. Just letting an inherited runner score to tie the game up is a blown save.

[84 Lives!!!]

I think they'll share the closers role.

And Rodney will close some games in non-save situations, like last night.

Jones: 80% of save situations. Rodney 20%

Just my guess...

[chasfh]

you can only have a blown save in a closer role, that stat isnt meaningless, it shows if you can come in and shut someone down, if the bases are loaded, you shouldnt give up that hit whether the run is charged to you or not, i cant continue giving any of these tigers a free pass, they have had one for the last 15 years.

Closers never come in with the bases loaded in the middle of an inning to shut a team down. They come in at the start of the ninth inning alone, and only with a 1-, 2- or 3-run lead.

That's the main problem with the closer-usage mentality -- it's a pack mentality, leading to a strategy where it's more important to not be caught failing in unusual situations (e.g., the famous Boston "closer by committee" experiment) than it is to fail "by the book".

I think we can all agree that bases loaded, 1 out in the eighth with your team tied or ahead by a run -- or even behind by a run -- is a much higher-leverage situation than 3 runs up to start the ninth. It's a situation that screams for your best reliever to "put out the fire" -- right?

So what do managers do? They bring in their #3, #4 or #5 guy to handle it. Because if those guys fail, well, it's OK, because the manager "went by the book". But if a manager put in his closer in this situation and the closer failed -- or worse yet, if the closer succeeded, thus making him "unavailable" to pitch a later inning in a "save situation" -- then the manager would never hear the end of it!

If you haven't noticed this before, then keep your eyes open and watch what happens when the Tigers get into this same 8th inning situation -- and pay attention to whom Leyland brings in at that point. I will bet you a dollar that you're going to see Jamie Walker, or Chris Spurling, or Jordan Tata -- likely not Fernando Rodney, and certainly not Todd Jones. Leyland's no different from the other managers in this regard.

[slim pickens]

a blown save can only occur in the 8th and 9th innings (except if the game goes longer) and if you let an inherited runner come in to score, then your not doing your job, hence Rodney letting them score all the time last year when they needed him to shut them down.

[qsilvr2531]

a blown save can only occur in the 8th and 9th innings (except if the game goes longer) and if you let an inherited runner come in to score, then your not doing your job, hence Rodney letting them score all the time last year when they needed him to shut them down.

I thought you could get a blown save anytime you enter the game in a "save situation."

Either way, I'm certain a blown save can occur prior to the 8th inning, as the current league leader (Oscar Villareal) in blown saves has 3 and all occured in the 7th inning.

[djhutch]

I don't care who closes .. as long as there are a bunch of opportunities to do so & somebody gets the job done.

[Tramfan]

some of you have said zumaya pitch the 7th, rodney the 8th and jonesy the 9th. sounds good to me. but zumaya seems to have shown he can pitch 2 innings...so if he could pitch the 6th and 7th, we'd only need 5 innings out of our starters...not saying we won't take more innings, but hey, this is a good problem to have.

I agree. What a great problem to have, but what in the world will we do with Kevin Whelan when he arrives during the second half? :cool:

[tiger337]

I thought you could get a blown save anytime you enter the game in a "save situation."

Either way, I'm certain a blown save can occur prior to the 8th inning, as the current league leader (Oscar Villareal) in blown saves has 3 and all occured in the 7th inning.

Since a save can occur if a pitcher pitches the 7th, 8th and 9th innings, then it makes sense than a blow save can happen in the 7th inning.

[Edman85]

Worse yet, a pitcher who blows a four run lead doesn't get a blown save.

[DaYooperASBDT]

Another thought I had about Rodney - since he is now a couple years removed from the TJ operation, perhaps he can throw some sliders now as well. Combine that with the plus fastball/changeup and you have one awesome reliever ....

[Tramfan]

Rodney's started to thow a nice two seamer in addition to his straight fastball, which seems to have regained the mid nineties velocity. I agree that Rodney's the one, who if he loses the closers job to Jones initially, it'll only be temperary. I have both Rodney and Jones on my fantasy team (jones on the dl), but I'd rather Rodney remained the closer if for no other reason he has the better stuff for the job. Which means more strikeouts and more tools to rely on when trouble starts to brew.

[84 Lives!!!]

I agree. What a great problem to have, but what in the world will we do with Kevin Whelan when he arrives during the second half? :cool:

Move Zumaya to the starting rotation.

That'll start the dominoes falling!!! :grin:

[Yoda]

Move Zumaya to the starting rotation.

That'll start the dominoes falling!!! :grin:

Let's not jump the gun here. Kevin didn't strike out a single batter last night. I think he's injured. :smoker:

[84 Lives!!!]

Let's not jump the gun here. Kevin didn't strike out a single batter last night. I think he's injured. :smoker:

He didn't strike out a batter last night?

Send him back down to Oneonta.

[slim pickens]

with jonsey coming back tommorow, he is going back to Oneonta!

[sabretooth]

Thank you! You just made a fan. Actually, you can add wins, losses and complete games to that as well.

You guys are after my own heart!!!

[sabretooth]

you can only have a blown save in a closer role

Well, I'm not giving this completely inaccurate statement a free pass....if you come in in relief at any point and lose the lead, you get a blown save, period.

EDIT:

Here's the definition of a save, there's no reference to when you come into a game to qualify for a save (except that if you come into a game in the last inning with a 3+ run lead and no runners on, in which case a save is not possible), so obviously a blown save cannot be time-dependent:

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/baseball/baseball-91.html

[mattie]

This was taken from this (http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060420&content_id=1410638&vkey=news_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det) article. This was the opening paragraph:

Fernando Rodney will go back to setup duty this weekend now that Todd Jones is back in the closer's role. But his manager won't forget Thursday.

and this was at the bottom:

Rodney's return to Oakland marked the end of his latest closing stint. But with 7 2/3 scoreless innings, it's not for lack of performance. It's the type of work Leyland will love in the eighth inning.

So, it looks as though Jonesy will be our closer as others have said in this thread. That's what he was signed for, and that's what he'll be used as.

[AlaskanTigersFan]

I agree. What a great problem to have, but what in the world will we do with Kevin Whelan when he arrives during the second half? :cool:

Didn't you hear? Roster expands in September :classic:

[tigersfan25]

a blown save can only occur in the 8th and 9th innings
Unequivocally False. You can get a save at any time of the game, depending on the situation.