How Trammell lost Pudge

[jake]

The most important relationship a manager can have is with his star player. That's obvious. When Pudge was moved to 7th and a rookie (Shelton) was put in the 3 hole in his spot, that was all she wrote for Trammell and Pudge. Pudge's mindset was "If he doesn't give me respect, I won't give him any". If Trammell had any clue about handling people, he would have known that he couldn't make that move.

Just because the move was probably the right move lineupwise, it just shows the poor judgment Trammell had with handling players.

[Yoda]

It isn't Tram's fault that Pudge has the biggest ego on the team. Pudge is nowhere near the best hitter on the team, and he needs to be professional enough to realize that and put his damn ego aside.

It isn't that Tram lost Pudge. It's the Pudge betrayed his manager and the team by putting himself first.

[Oblong]

So Pudge laid down because he batted 7th?

[jake]

It isn't Tram's fault that Pudge has the biggest ego on the team. Pudge is nowhere near the best hitter on the team, and he needs to be professional enough to realize that and put his damn ego aside.

It isn't that Tram lost Pudge. It's the Pudge betrayed his manager and the team by putting himself first.

Then Leyland is an idiot for hitting Pudge 3rd? No, the lineup isn't as important as keeping everyone on board. Leyland knows how Pudge is, he isn't going to change him. The players know how Pudge is. Leyland understands players. They all aren't like Alan Trammell. When we signed Pudge, we got his bat, his glove, his arm, and his EGO. Trammell didn't have the ability to handle him.

[jake]

So Pudge laid down because he batted 7th?

Yup, and Young quit after his bonus kicked in. A good manager doesn't have his players quitting. Bottom line.

[Oblong]

But at the end of the day the fault lies with the players and not the manager. Yes a manager could have maybe done something about it if he kissed their *** more but that's not something a professional athlete should need.

I get what you are saying though.

[Yoda]

Then Leyland is an idiot for hitting Pudge 3rd?

I never said that. I'm just not making excuses for Pudge. He had just as much to do with it as Tram. I don't care how big of an ego someone has. You still expect them to remain professional.

And who cares if Pudge hated Tram. He was sucking long before he got moved down in the order. If he wasn't then he wouldn't have gotten moved.

[jake]

A manager's job is to get his players to play hard and smart and well. Trammell failed miserably in that. That's why he was fired.

[tiger337]

Pudge was crap last year. He should have been batting ninth.

[tiger337]

Yup, and Young quit after his bonus kicked in. A good manager doesn't have his players quitting. Bottom line.

Good players don't quit. Bottom line.

[jake]

I loved Leyland's opening day lineup, by the way.

[Yoda]

A manager's job is to get his players to play hard and smart and well. Trammell failed miserably in that. That's why he was fired.

This is entirely false, IMO.

[jake]

Good players don't quit. Bottom line.

Pudge is a hall of fame player. Trammell is a bad manager.

[jake]

This is entirely false, IMO.

What part of entirely?

[Yoda]

Pudge is a hall of fame player. Trammell is a bad manager.

So that excuses Pudge for being an a-hole?

[billfer]

Then Leyland is an idiot for hitting Pudge 3rd?

He's not an idiot yet. But if Pudge hits like it's 2005 and he continues to stick in the 3-spot, then yes Leyland is an idiot.

Would you rather lose one player, or the rest of the clubhouse due to special treatment of one player? I thought that was part of Trammell's problem last year is that the other players got pissed off because of Pudge's special treatment?

[jake]

So that excuses Pudge for being an a-hole?

Maybe his feelings were just hurt? :lick:

[One Man's Fool]

Jake, you had a burr in your saddle from the get-go over feeling that Tram hadn't "paid his dues" before getting the Tigers' managing gig. I think that has a lot to do with why you're putting so much responsibility on Tram for completely inexcusable behavior on Pudge's part.

It certainly does look like Leyland is better at handling these kinds of egos than Tram was, so kudos to Leyland for that, but the responsibility for Pudge acting the way he did lies 100 percent with Pudge and none at all with anyone else. He acted selfishly and contrary to the best interests of the team. I will never look at him quite the same because of that.

[jake]

He's not an idiot yet. But if Pudge hits like it's 2005 and he continues to stick in the 3-spot, then yes Leyland is an idiot.

Would you rather lose one player, or the rest of the clubhouse due to special treatment of one player? I thought that was part of Trammell's problem last year is that the other players got pissed off because of Pudge's special treatment?

What if he didn't hit well but the team was winning, do you change it then?

[tiger337]

Then Leyland is an idiot for hitting Pudge 3rd? No, the lineup isn't as important as keeping everyone on board. Leyland knows how Pudge is, he isn't going to change him. The players know how Pudge is. Leyland understands players. They all aren't like Alan Trammell. When we signed Pudge, we got his bat, his glove, his arm, and his EGO. Trammell didn't have the ability to handle him.

Jake, I actually understand what you're saying but how long should he bat Pudge third if he hits like he did last year? This move could work and it could just as easily backfire if he leaves him there too long. If Rodriguez does not hit, Leyland is going to have to confront the situation. That's when we'll find out how well Leyland handles things.

[jake]

Jake, you had a burr in your saddle from the get-go over feeling that Tram hadn't "paid his dues" before getting the Tigers' managing gig. I think that has a lot to do with why you're putting so much responsibility on Tram for completely inexcusable behavior on Pudge's part.

It certainly does look like Leyland is better at handling these kinds of egos than Tram was, so kudos to Leyland for that, but the responsibility for Pudge acting the way he did lies 100 percent with Pudge and none at all with anyone else. He acted selfishly and contrary to the best interests of the team. I will never look at him quite the same because of that.

Trammell didn't pay his dues and was ill-equipped to handle Pudge and his ego. Leyland is equipped to handle Pudge. He won a World Series with Pudge playing incredibly well. Leyland managed in the minor leagues for a long, long time. Trammell was a P.R. hire.

[tiger337]

What if he didn't hit well but the team was winning, do you change it then?

That's an unlikely scenario. If Rodriguez is not hitting, then the team is probably not going to be doing a lot of winning, This team is not going to win a lot of games unless everything goes right and that includes Rodgriguez hitting.

[billfer]

What if he didn't hit well but the team was winning, do you change it then?

Probably depends on how they were winning. If the offense is averaging 5-6 runs a game I probably wouldn't change it. If they have a spell of spectacular pitching and are winning 3-2 and 4-3 then yes, I probably would.

[jake]

Jake, I actually understand what you're saying but how long should he bat Pudge third if he hits like he did last year? This move could work and it could just as easily backfire if he leaves him there too long. If Rodriguez does not hit, Leyland is going to have to confront the situation. That's when we'll find out how well Leyland handles things.

As long as the team is playing well and winning, keep him there all year no matter how he's hitting. He only hits 3rd once a game.

[Yoda]

Trammell didn't pay his dues and was ill-equipped to handle Pudge and his ego. Leyland is equipped to handle Pudge. He won a World Series with Pudge playing incredibly well. Leyland managed in the minor leagues for a long, long time. Trammell was a P.R. hire.

Your hate for Trammell has seriously clouded your perception of the 2005 team.

[One Man's Fool]

Trammell didn't pay his dues and was ill-equipped to handle Pudge and his ego. Leyland is equipped to handle Pudge. He won a World Series with Pudge playing incredibly well. Leyland managed in the minor leagues for a long, long time. Trammell was a P.R. hire.

I believe that Tram gave the best interview of the candidates who talked to DD in October 2002 and that DD was persuaded he was the best man for the job. I think DD saw the good P.R. as a bonus, but not the deciding factor.

It is very easy now to say it was just a P.R. hire, but in order for that to be true you would have to make the case that someone else in the process deserved the job more - and that you are sure Dombrowski believed this as well. Remember, you weren't in the interviews.

I've been through hiring processes where everyone involved was sure a certain person was right for the job, but they clearly demonstrated in their interview that they were not, while another person showed far more than expected.

I do not think Dombrowski's general pattern of behavior supports the idea that he would hire a poorly suited candidate just to get good headlines.

[tiger337]

Jake, you had a burr in your saddle from the get-go over feeling that Tram hadn't "paid his dues" before getting the Tigers' managing gig. I think that has a lot to do with why you're putting so much responsibility on Tram for completely inexcusable behavior on Pudge's part.


'
This is not true. In Trammell's first two years as manager, Jake defended him most of the time and told people to give him a chance. It wasn't until last year that Jake got on his case. This is not a criticism of Jake. There is nothing wrong with changing your mind when you get new information.

[jake]

Probably depends on how they were winning. If the offense is averaging 5-6 runs a game I probably wouldn't change it. If they have a spell of spectacular pitching and are winning 3-2 and 4-3 then yes, I probably would.

So you'd piss off your Hall of Fame catcher and effect team chemistry because you weren't winning by enough runs?

The question really is: Is it more important for him to be happy and a positive influence and hitting 3rd or more important to change his spot in the batting order and possibly wreck everything you have going for you?

If they are losing and he's not hitting well, you call him in and discuss the situation with him. And by starting him in the 3 hole and showing him that respect and talking to him the conversation will probably go OK. Putting a ROOKIE in his spot (probably without a discussion) is not the way to handle emotional, Hall of Fame players.

[tiger337]

Pudge is a hall of fame player. Trammell is a bad manager.

Hall of Fame players are not supposed to quit and have an OBP of .290. Rodriguez was crap last year offensively and it's 100% his fault.

[billfer]

And you know, maybe it is a brilliant move. Pudge had serious issues with strike zone recognition last year. Maybe by batting him in front of Ordonez, he may be trying to get Pudge better pitches to hit, or at least reduce the chances of him striking himself out. In short, trying to put him in the best position to succeed.

Meanwhile, Shelton who has a decent command of the strike zone can work the counts and take walks, or battle until he gets something he can hit - irrespective of who's behind him.

I'm not saying it will work, or that's the reasoning. I'm just throwing it out there.

[jake]

'
This is not true. In Trammell's first two years as manager, Jake defended him most of the time and told people to give him a chance. It wasn't until last year that Jake got on his case. This is not a criticism of Jake. There is nothing wrong with changing your mind when you get new information.

That's accurate. And then I started watching how he let Higginson (a crappy player) behave and how poorly he handled his bullpen and I started asking questions. I do know he benched Infante for not running out a popup and didn't with Higginson. And then he put Shelton into Rodriguez' spot. Maybe it was viewed as racial by Pudge and the latin players. I do know Trammell didn't have a clue how his moves would effect the players egos. He only had one Latin coach. And the communication on that team had to be terrible. Look how badly they underachieved.

[jake]

Hall of Fame players are not supposed to quit and have an OBP of .290. Rodriguez was crap last year offensively and it's 100% his fault.

I disagree. A manager's job is to also create a climate where all players can be successful. That climate was not there. (Plus, Pudge got off the steroids and there has to be an adjustment period):classic:

[billfer]

So you'd piss off your Hall of Fame catcher and effect team chemistry because you weren't winning by enough runs?

The question really is: Is it more important for him to be happy and a positive influence and hitting 3rd or more important to change his spot in the batting order and possibly wreck everything you have going for you?

If they are losing and he's not hitting well, you call him in and discuss the situation with him. And by starting him in the 3 hole and showing him that respect and talking to him the conversation will probably go OK. Putting a ROOKIE in his spot (probably without a discussion) is not the way to handle emotional, Hall of Fame players.

Yes I would because if healthy the offense should be scoring more than 3-4 runs a game. And again, who is more important - Pudge or the other 24 guys?

[jake]

I do know there were serious questions when Trammell picked Higginson over Thames. All these things add up. The more we discuss this the more I think alot of the moves were viewed as racial by the players. Perception is reality.

[tiger337]

Pudge is a hall of fame player. Trammell is a bad manager.

Pudge's Hall of Fame status does the team no good if he doesn't play like one. If he plays like a Hall of Famer, then you stroke his ego a little bit. If he doesn't, then who cares? Rodriguez was batting third early in the year and wasn't helping the team. So Trammell moved him out of there. Trammell did a lot of things wrong but this was not one of them.

[jake]

Yes I would because if healthy the offense should be scoring more than 3-4 runs a game. And again, who is more important - Pudge or the other 24 guys?

That's my point. Moving Pudge is going to effect the team's attitude (seeing that Pudge's attitude is vital to the team) more than moving him down in the batting order to create more offense.

[jake]

Pudge's Hall of Fame status does the team no good if he doesn't play like one. If he plays like a Hall of Famer, then you stroke his ego a little bit. If he doesn't, then who cares? Rodriguez was batting third early in the year and wasn't helping the team. So Trammell moved him out of there. Trammell did a lot of things wrong but this was not one of them.

Did he discuss the move with him? I'd discuss it with a little leaguer if I moved his spot in the order he was used to. It looks to me that this turned into a pissing contest. You don't get into pissing contests with your star player.

[billfer]

That's my point. Moving Pudge is going to effect the team's attitude (seeing that Pudge's attitude is vital to the team) more than moving him down in the batting order to create more offense.

But Pudge's attitude doesn't necessarily serve as a barometer for what the rest of the team is feeling. You mentioned the coddling of Higginson that drew resentment, but coddling Pudge will keep everybody happy? I know that Pudge's and Higginson's status in terms of importance to the game can't be compared, but isn't special treatment typically resented by others?

[tiger337]

That's my point. Moving Pudge is going to effect the team's attitude (seeing that Pudge's attitude is vital to the team) more than moving him down in the batting order to create more offense.

Leaving him there too long could affect the team's attitude even more. Rodriguez had a great track record before last year so I can see what Leyland is doing even if I don't like it. He can't leave him there indefinitely if he continues to hit poorly though because then it starts to turn into a Bobby Higginson situation.

[billfer]

Did he discuss the move with him? I'd discuss it with a little leaguer if I moved his spot in the order he was used to. It looks to me that this turned into a pissing contest. You don't get into pissing contests with your star player.

How do we know if he discussed it? And in terms of pissing contests, who went over who's head to make a vacation out of a suspension and then showed up late?

Trammell probably could have done a lot of things better, but don't blame Pudge's year on Trammell.

[tiger337]

Did he discuss the move with him? I'd discuss it with a little leaguer if I moved his spot in the order he was used to. It looks to me that this turned into a pissing contest. You don't get into pissing contests with your star player.

How do you know he didn't discuss it with him?

[DTroppens]

There is a middle ground there. Pudge has to have a bit more self respect for himself instead of self egotism. The guy could use that as an excuse but he was going through a divorce and there's no doubt he let that impact his play as well.

That said Pudge won't be batting third if he produces what he did last year again this year for very long. But this year he will probably accept it more because Leyland has stronger credentials behind him than Trammell ever did. And really that's not Trammell's fault. It's hard to establish credentials when your first team you manage is the crapheap he had.

[jake]

But Pudge's attitude doesn't necessarily serve as a barometer for what the rest of the team is feeling. You mentioned the coddling of Higginson that drew resentment, but coddling Pudge will keep everybody happy? I know that Pudge's and Higginson's status in terms of importance to the game can't be compared, but isn't special treatment typically resented by others?

I think special treatment goes on everywhere in professional athletics. I only think it's a problem if you say to the team "There's no special treatment". Everybody on this team understands how Pudge is. The thing Leyland will have to do is have the respect from PUdge to reel him in when he's close to going too far. Higginson hadn't earned that type of treatment. He was a below average player. The perception probably was that Higginson was getting special treatment because he was white and he was Gibby's buddy.

And, no, I don't like special treatment either but you must treat all players differently at times because they are all different. I think it's a great move to hit Pudge 3rd and it will be accepted by all the players (because over the years he's earned it) as long as we are winning. If we aren't winning and Pudge isn't hitting, it will change and Leyland's previous handling of Pudge will earn him the respect of Pudge so he will accept it.

[jake]

How do you know he didn't discuss it with him?

I don't.

[jake]

Interesting discussion. And yes, Pudge has an attitude problem he needs to fix. And Leyland has his work cut out for him with this group. Nice move by cutting Pena. One less guy he has to worry about playing.

[Canon Fodder]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Pudge did endure a tough divorce last season. That, as much as anything else, probably affected his mindset and play.

[Oblong]

Trammell made him get divorced. The embarassment of batting 7th made PUdge feel small as a man and as a result he couldn't perform in the bedroom. His wife went looking elsewhere and Pudge found out and found solace in a venezuelan woman who made him feel like a man again.

[DTroppens]

I remember reading that Oblong. I'll have to find that link to the freep or detnews.:classic:

[Sparks4Ever]

I think the problem was Pudge's giant ego, not Tram's handling of him. The guy has a larger-than-life bronze statue of himself after all.

http://arizainc.tripod.com/images/rodriguezsmall.gif

[Oblong]

Maybe Leyland will put a statue in the clubhouse or a throne and Pudge will be happy?

[Ingefanclub]

Pudge has hit .300 almost every year in the big leagues. He more than likely will hit .300 this year. Going through the divorce last year had an effect on him and he seemed to take it out on Trammell.

Tram was a bad manager but I don't think he could have handled the Pudge situation any differently. The players didn't respect him because he was so young and inexperienced.

[FRM710]

Bottomline is Leyland is giving Pudge the respect and opportunity to get it done in the third spot. If he doesn't do it, then Leyland will make a change or he ends up being a hypocrite, which I doubt happens.

Leyland, IMO would tell Pudge I gave you the shot, it ain't working you're batting in the ??spot until you learn to take pitches and figure it out. Which puts it back on Pudges shoulders.

[ian_a]

Tram batted Pudge high in the order until Pudge began to cost them with his inability to produce. For months Pudge was 5th or higher.

[DTroppens]

Pudge is getting up there a bit in age. I am not expecting him to bat .300 this season - especially if he shows the same plate discipline he did a year ago.

[tiger337]

Pudge is getting up there a bit in age. I am not expecting him to bat .300 this season - especially if he shows the same plate discipline he did a year ago.

I agree. I think much of the decline last year was age related. I think he'll bounce back a little but I believe his best days are behind him.

[RobSk]

So here's the basic problem with Leylands proposed order, IMO.

I actually have less problem with the attempted ego boost for Rodriguez than I do with the silly "Bat the CF first no matter what" approach. Bat Polanco first. Put Shelton second and then Ego-Boy third.

Granderson has no expectations, and would have no pressure batting 7th or 8th. That's what I'd do.

Of course, there's a lot of stuff I'd do differently than most managers, so.. :)

Rob

[TigersMeow79]

I didn't like Tram but he didn't lose Pudge. Pudge got an inflated ego when he found out he could go to Dombrowski to get time off. That right there gave Pudge the idea that he was bigger than Tram and the whole team.

[caseyo4]

Pudge was crap last year. He should have been batting ninth.

This sentiment is just ridiculous. Pudge did not have the type of year he is capable of having, sure. But I would take him over 95% of the other catchers in the league on his worst day. He is a Hall of Famer wearing our jersey, bottom line...Some of us need to stop with the gossip BS about last year and give him some respect.

[RobSk]

This sentiment is just ridiculous. Pudge did not have the type of year he is capable of having, sure. But I would take him over 95% of the other catchers in the league on his worst day. He is a Hall of Famer wearing our jersey, bottom line...Some of us need to stop with the gossip BS about last year and give him some respect.


Casey,

Pudge was not better than 95% of the catchers last year. Indeed, looking at catchers with greater than 350 AB last season, he was 15th out of 27 guys.

Now, I think he's a better defender than a fair number of the guys ahead of him, so overall I think that his 2005 performance was probably 75th percentile. Nothing like 95th.

Rob

[tiger337]

This sentiment is just ridiculous. Pudge did not have the type of year he is capable of having, sure. But I would take him over 95% of the other catchers in the league on his worst day. He is a Hall of Famer wearing our jersey, bottom line...Some of us need to stop with the gossip BS about last year and give him some respect.

I couldn't care less about the gossip BS. Nothing he did offensively last year dserves our respect. He had an OBP of .290 last year. That's pathetic no matter what position he played. He was crap offensively and his Hall of Fame status does not change that.

He was very good defensively last year. I hope he improves offensively this year. If he does, that would be a big boost.

[tiger337]

Casey,

Pudge was not better than 95% of the catchers last year. Indeed, looking at catchers with greater than 350 AB last season, he was 15th out of 27 guys.

Now, I think he's a better defender than a fair number of the guys ahead of him, so overall I think that his 2005 performance was probably 75th percentile. Nothing like 95th.

Rob

That is probably accurate but your position in the batting order should not be determined by how well you play defense.

[RobSk]

That is probably accurate but your position in the batting order should not be determined by how well you play defense.

Lee,

No doubt. I was going at a bit of a tangent in response to casey's comment. IMO, only Logan and Infante hit worse among regulars last year, and with them in, I would have hit Pudge ahead of them...

Rob

[tiger337]

Lee,

No doubt. I was going at a bit of a tangent in response to casey's comment. IMO, only Logan and Infante hit worse among regulars last year, and with them in, I would have hit Pudge ahead of them...

Rob

yeah, I knew you were going off on a tangent. I'm just restless today. I think I need the season to start.

[Biff Mayhem]

Leyland is equipped to handle Pudge. He won a World Series with Pudge playing incredibly well.


Leyland didn't win a World Series with Pudge.

[DTroppens]

I think Pudge may play four games a week at catcher this year - five if we have a seven-game slate. In my mind I think it will be interesting to see if he can earn a spot at DH occasionally when he has those days off. He'll get Thursdays and Sundays off is my guess. I bet he doesn't do enough to merit that role on some of those days.

[Tigercub33]

Leyland didn't win a World Series with Pudge.

Thank you for pointing this out. It has been VERY annoying hearing/reading this many times over throughout the past couples of months.

I know it is hard to remember, but just because both are old crotchety men, Jack McKeon and Jim Leyland are NOT the same person

[jake]

Leyland didn't win a World Series with Pudge.

Thank you for pointing this out. He won it with some other egomaniacs (Bonilla, Sheffield, Kevin Brown, Moises Alou)

[DrWho17]

Trammell didn't pay his dues and was ill-equipped to handle Pudge and his ego. Leyland is equipped to handle Pudge. He won a World Series with Pudge playing incredibly well. Leyland managed in the minor leagues for a long, long time. Trammell was a P.R. hire.
Rodriquez has never played for Leyland until this year. Leyland won the world series with Charles Johnson catching when he was with the Marlins.

Edit: looks like others already caught this.

[DrWho17]

I agree. I think much of the decline last year was age related. I think he'll bounce back a little but I believe his best days are behind him.
Well that and his mysterious off season diet.

[Biff Mayhem]

Thank you for pointing this out. He won it with some other egomaniacs (Bonilla, Sheffield, Kevin Brown, Moises Alou)

Actually he won it despite Bonilla and Brown. Bonilla had a bad hammy and refused to be the DH in the Cleveland home games and Brown can't win a big game to save his life.

[tiger337]

Has any team ever won a World Series without some egomaniacs on the team?

[sabretooth]

Trammell made him get divorced. The embarassment of batting 7th made PUdge feel small as a man and as a result he couldn't perform in the bedroom. His wife went looking elsewhere and Pudge found out and found solace in a venezuelan woman who made him feel like a man again.

Man, I'm glad I wasn't drinking something when I read this.....:laugh:

[DET Mr Malefic]

I believe that Tram gave the best interview of the candidates who talked to DD in October 2002 and that DD was persuaded he was the best man for the job. I think DD saw the good P.R. as a bonus, but not the deciding factor.

It is very easy now to say it was just a P.R. hire, but in order for that to be true you would have to make the case that someone else in the process deserved the job more - and that you are sure Dombrowski believed this as well. Remember, you weren't in the interviews.

I've been through hiring processes where everyone involved was sure a certain person was right for the job, but they clearly demonstrated in their interview that they were not, while another person showed far more than expected.

I do not think Dombrowski's general pattern of behavior supports the idea that he would hire a poorly suited candidate just to get good headlines.

Bruce Fields should've gotten the job.

That said, I cannot prove that Dombrowski believed this to be the case.

[Biff Mayhem]

Bruce Fields should've gotten the job.


Bingo

[tater6]

If the problem was just Tram and Pudge, I could agree that it was Pudge and his ego. He lost the whole team by the end of the season. I think he lost a lot more than Pudge when he decided to keep Higgy. As much as I liked Tram as a player, I had twice as much dislike for him as a manager. The Tigers are much the same team that finished the season so poorly last year. Going to be interesting to see how they do with Leyland. Who knows, I may have to change my opinion of Tram, but I doubt it.

[Motor City Sonics]

There were some problems, but the big blow up between the two really came when Pudge came back late from a few days off and lied about it. Tram told him that if he was going through some personal stuff, he'd understand, but Pudge needed to tell the truth and that pissed of Pudge and two never spoke civilly again. That was not long after the all-star break - that was when the team fell apart.

[pfife]

And again, who is more important - Pudge or the other 24 guys?

Well, I think we saw last year that these are not mutually exclusive. I think when you piss off pudge, he has the moxie (compared to Trammell) to get a good portion of the team to feel the way he does, and act indignant.

[billfer]

Well, I think we saw last year that these are not mutually exclusive. I think when you piss off pudge, he has the moxie (compared to Trammell) to get a good portion of the team to feel the way he does, and act indignant.

Everything I heard coming out was that the other players weren't joining forces with Pudge, they were pissed off about the special treatment he received and his unwillingness to be part of the team.

[pfife]

Everything I heard coming out was that the other players weren't joining forces with Pudge, they were pissed off about the special treatment he received and his unwillingness to be part of the team.

I thought he did have a few converts.... maybe I am wrong though. Maybe the other carpetbaggers didn't agree with him, but were carpetbagging for some other reason.

[Cult of Guillen]

I don't know Jake, but I find it hard to believe that he seriously believes what he is posting. This thread feels like a Rob Parker column--intended to evoke a reaction.

While I was a big fan of Tram the player, I never wanted him to become manager because I feared this outcome. However, to put the blame of last year on his shoulders because Pudge and DaMeat couldn't act professionally is just ridiculous.

You can criticize Tram for his strategic decisions regarding the roster, lineups, etc..., but this is a guy who obviously poured his heart into his job. I'll take that over a couple of poor performing malcontents any day of the week.

[OldTimey]

Bruce Fields should've gotten the job.

I dunno. At the time they need to deflect some attention from the rebuilding and buy some patience. Firings have a lot to do with public perception. It may have been a dsservice to Fields to hire him knowing he' be the fall guy one year later.

[Oblong]

If Fields had gotten the job he would have been fired in August or September of 2003. Any other manager besides Tram would have been.

[pfife]

If Fields had gotten the job he would have been fired in August or September of 2003. Any other manager besides Tram would have been.

I think this is correct.

[estrepe1]

Pudge was crap last year. He should have been batting ninth.

Darn right. Pudge was terrible. Pretty much the worst hitter on the team.

[jake]

I don't know Jake, but I find it hard to believe that he seriously believes what he is posting. This thread feels like a Rob Parker column--intended to evoke a reaction.

While I was a big fan of Tram the player, I never wanted him to become manager because I feared this outcome. However, to put the blame of last year on his shoulders because Pudge and DaMeat couldn't act professionally is just ridiculous.

You can criticize Tram for his strategic decisions regarding the roster, lineups, etc..., but this is a guy who obviously poured his heart into his job. I'll take that over a couple of poor performing malcontents any day of the week.


Managing in the year 2006 is mostly handling the people. Trammell couldn't do that. Plus, almost every player on the team got worse last year. That's pretty bad managing.

[RobSk]

E,

Look, Pudge was awful last year, but...worst hitter on the team?

For guys with signifcant AB, Nook Logan or Omar Infante have to take that prize.

Rob

[tiger337]

Everything I heard coming out was that the other players weren't joining forces with Pudge, they were pissed off about the special treatment he received and his unwillingness to be part of the team.

I agree. I get the impression that many of the players (especially some of the pitchers) disliked Pudge.

[estrepe1]

E,

Look, Pudge was awful last year, but...worst hitter on the team?

For guys with signifcant AB, Nook Logan or Omar Infante have to take that prize.

Rob

I said pretty much the worst hitter. I agree that Infante and Logan were worse...

Although I consider Ivan's season more damaging because they were counting on him more than they were the other two.

[tiger337]

Managing in the year 2006 is mostly handling the people. Trammell couldn't do that. Plus, almost every player on the team got worse last year. That's pretty bad managing.

Actually, most of the players who stayed healthy came pretty close to their PECOTAs. Rodriguez, was the biggest underperformer. Young and Infante also underperformed but some of that might have been due to health issues. White, Shelton and Polanco all outperformed their PECOTAs. The Tigers did not have an unusual number of players underperforming last year. They did have a lot of key players get injured.

[tiger337]

I don't know Jake, but I find it hard to believe that he seriously believes what he is posting. This thread feels like a Rob Parker column--intended to evoke a reaction.



Jake definitely intends to evoke a reaction with his posts and he's good at it. He's a lot smarter than Rob Parker though.

[Biff Mayhem]

I said pretty much the worst hitter.

Napoleon, like anyone can even know that.

[qsilvr2531]

The Tigers underperformed because they did better early in the year than they did late in the year. And clearly the first half of the season is the perfect barometer for what our expectations for a player should be.

It's sad to me that one season on the Marlins was all it took to convince people that Pudge was a leader. Hopefully he rebounds from last year a bit and his defense is more like 2005 than 2004.

[tiger337]

[QUOTE=qsilvr2531]The Tigers underperformed because they did better early in the year than they did late in the year. And clearly the first half of the season is the perfect barometer for what our expectations for a player should be.

/QUOTE]

Actually, people were saying all year that they underperformed. That's what fans of losing teams do.

[qsilvr2531]

Actually, people were saying all year that they underperformed. That's what fans of losing teams do.

I don't remember alot of underperforming talk when they were close to .500. Then again, people constantly pick the Tigers to win 85 games and sneak into the Central division title, so people were probably complaining about underperforming and I was simply ignoring them.

[tiger337]

I don't remember alot of underperforming talk when they were close to .500. .

People were saying they had a mental block against the .500 mark because they would get up to .500 and then lose 4 games in a row. Then when they got to 4 or 5 games under, people would say that they were underperforming.

[Oblong]

oh yeah, I forgot about the mental block. Who's fault was that again?

[iholly]

IMO...First I think too much credit & blame is directed at Tram. First, I doubt Tram had much say about Higgy staying with the team. I suspect that decision came all the way from the top ($$). I'm sure Pudge's divorce made him a cranky old man and it would have been hard for anyone to deal with Pudge at that point. His head just wasn't screwed on right after that. The thing that really seemed to set the team off was the trading of Farnsworth. It seemed to send the message that management had given up for the season and the players were really trying hard to win. I think it really took the wind out of a lot of players. All these things really manifested themselves during the last two months. At that point the best thing to do was start over with a new leader which DD did.

[Tyrus]

It's not right to put all the blame on either Tram or Pudge. Like all disputes, the real truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

The reality is, nobody knows exactly what went down between Trammell and Rodriguez. All we've heard is each camp's spin on things, and even that information has been piecemeal.

So, with the limited info we have, we can only speculate as to whose "fault" it was.

From what little we know, it seems that, yes, Pudge did act unprofessionally. And, apparently, Tram didn't know how to deal with that.

So, IMO, both are to blame.

[jake]

Actually, most of the players who stayed healthy came pretty close to their PECOTAs. Rodriguez, was the biggest underperformer. Young and Infante also underperformed but some of that might have been due to health issues. White, Shelton and Polanco all outperformed their PECOTAs. The Tigers did not have an unusual number of players underperforming last year. They did have a lot of key players get injured.

What's a PECOTA? And how did Shelton and Polanco have a true comparison. Both played 1/2 a season in Detroit. White missed 2 months. As far as injuries go, if Trammell would have used them differently, maybe they wouldn't have gotten hurt.

[jake]

I don't remember alot of underperforming talk when they were close to .500. Then again, people constantly pick the Tigers to win 85 games and sneak into the Central division title, so people were probably complaining about underperforming and I was simply ignoring them.

I thought they underperformed. I was screaming that they were underperforming.

[qsilvr2531]

What's a PECOTA? And how did Shelton and Polanco have a true comparison. Both played 1/2 a season in Detroit. White missed 2 months. As far as injuries go, if Trammell would have used them differently, maybe they wouldn't have gotten hurt.

PECOTA is baseball prospectus' projection system. It projects players based on their previous statistical record, including minor league statistics.

It's also possible that if Trammell would have used them differently, more injuries would have occured. So what?

[qsilvr2531]

I thought they underperformed. I was screaming that they were underperforming.

Maybe because they performed as I expected them to for most of the year, I didn't notice much complaining about underperforming.

Considering you picked them to finish 2nd in the division last year, I think your perception of their underperforming had more to do with your inflated expectations than any actual underperforming.

How well do you expect them to perform this year? Given your perception of a stronger division, do you expect them to finish in 2nd again?

[jake]

PECOTA is baseball prospectus' projection system. It projects players based on their previous statistical record, including minor league statistics.

It's also possible that if Trammell would have used them differently, more injuries would have occured. So what?

Agreed. So let's dance.

[jake]

Maybe because they performed as I expected them to for most of the year, I didn't notice much complaining about underperforming.

Considering you picked them to finish 2nd in the division last year, I think your perception of their underperforming had more to do with your inflated expectations than any actual underperforming.

How well do you expect them to perform this year? Given your perception of a stronger division, do you expect them to finish in 2nd again?

I think Chicago and Cleveland will be better than us and Minnesota should be similar to us. I did a statistical comparison last year at the half way point comparing the Sox and Us and there is no way they should have been way ahead of us except they were winning close games and we weren't. Then they got hotter and we completely collapsed. I still think the biggest difference between the Sox and Tigers last year was the difference between the way the Sox responded to Guillen and the way the Tigers responded to Trammell. As a matter of fact, most of the motownboard in your contest had the Tigers ahead of the Sox in the preseason contest. I think the Tigers will be better than last year by alot but so will the Indians and the Sox will ride their confidence from last year (and off-season additions) to another good season. Last year was the year we had a chance to sneak in there. Chicago did and we collapsed. This year I don't see that same window.

[qsilvr2531]

The Sox were definately a surprise last year. The pitching (and defense) was much better than almost anyone anticipated and their bullpen was great (plus Guillen did a great job of managing that bullpen).

Did the White Sox really get "hotter" after the break? My perception was they faltered a bit (and almost missed the playoffs because of it) before a strong September, but I could be remembering wrong. Either way, I think winning close games is mostly luck. Maybe the Sox will do it again this year but personally I doubt it.

So you expect us to win more games next year, but still finish in 3rd or 4th because the Indians and White Sox are better than you thought they were last year?

[tiger337]

Last year was the year we had a chance to sneak in there. Chicago did and we collapsed. This year I don't see that same window.

Cleveland also had a good season last year so it must not have been too big of a window. I think the window is still there this year. The Indians will not lead the league in pitching this year and the White Sox will not win all those one run games. I also don't think the White Sox pitching staff will stay healthy all year again. There are no dominant teams in the division. There is still an opportunity for a team like the Tigers to put it all together and sneak in there. I don't expect it but I think the opportunity is there as much this year as it was last year.

[TonyJM]

If Fields had gotten the job he would have been fired in August or September of 2003. Any other manager besides Tram would have been.


Probably true, which is one of the reasons Tram was hired. His hiring bought some patience for a team that couldn't possibly contend for at least two-three seasons. His firing over the summer also made political sense, though I think it's probably the final nail in the coffin for his hall of fame hopes (if it hadn't been hit already.)


-Tony

[jake]

Cleveland also had a good season last year so it must not have been too big of a window. I think the window is still there this year. The Indians will not lead the league in pitching this year and the White Sox will not win all those one run games. I also don't think the White Sox pitching staff will stay healthy all year again. There are no dominant teams in the division. There is still an opportunity for a team like the Tigers to put it all together and sneak in there. I don't expect it but I think the opportunity is there as much this year as it was last year.

I hope so.