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Joe Gahona
05-11-2005, 02:58 PM
LINK (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MI_PREGNANT_TEACHER_MIOL-?SITE=MIDTN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

May 11, 12:44 PM EDT

School punishes teacher for getting pregnant before married

BERRIEN SPRINGS, Mich. (AP) -- A kindergarten teacher at private Christian elementary school has been placed on paid administrative leave until her contract expires because she became pregnant before she got married.

Christine John, a first-year teacher at the Village Seventh-day Adventist Elementary School in Berrien Springs, said she was asked at a meeting with school officials last week why she was four months along in her pregnancy when she had been married just two months before.

John, 24, said school officials told her that premarital sex is an act strictly forbidden by the school system and the Seventh-day Adventist religion. In the end, she was told her services were no longer necessary.

Now she's considering legal action.
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"I was very surprised. Shocked," John told the South Bend (Ind.) Tribune for a Wednesday story. "I had no clue what the meeting was about."

School officials said John was placed on administrative leave until her contract expires.

Michael Nickless, communication director for the Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, said that under the school's policies, unmarried teachers who get pregnant can be fired immediately.

"In our school system, our teachers are expected to be a positive spiritual example for our congregations and youth," Nickless said in a prepared statement. "When she (John) chose behavior contrary to those values, she was placed on administrative leave.

"Even though policy allows for immediate dismissal, out of compassion, her present contract continues to be honored and she will receive full pay and benefits until the contract expires."

John said her contract runs through June 8.

A 2003 graduate of the Seventh-day Adventist Andrews University in Berrien Springs, John said she hadn't encountered any disciplinary problems with her job until last week.

The Stevensville resident said that after she became pregnant, she talked to the school's principal about taking a maternity leave.

"I never tried to hide the situation," she said.

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zimm
05-11-2005, 03:03 PM
man. if this was spelled out in the terms of her employment, then she'd be a good candidate for the working world's equivelant of the "darwin awards."

MotownRandy
05-11-2005, 03:37 PM
A kindergarten teacher at private Christian elementary school has been placed on paid administrative leave until her contract expires because she became pregnant before she got married.


I don't think that having children/getting pregnant before marriage is a good idea, but people should be allowed to do it, and they definitely shouldn't lose their jobs over it. She's getting paid though. This, combined with the fact that it is a private school, might make for a weak case.

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by MotownRandy
I don't think that having children/getting pregnant before marriage is a good idea, but people should be allowed to do it, and they definitely shouldn't lose their jobs over it. She's getting paid though. This, combined with the fact that it is a private school, might make for a weak case.


If she were employed in the secular world, I would agree. However, she is not, and she knew or should have known that going in. Apparently, her Seventh-day Adventist education didn't stick.

When I was in the seventh grade, our teacher left in the middle of the year because she was unmarried and became pregnant. Damn shame. She really was a student favorite. And one of the strongest women I've ever seen. This was at a Detroit Catholic school, circa 1982.

qsilvr2531
05-11-2005, 03:51 PM
Ironically, she'd have been better off not telling the administration and just having the baby aborted.

qsilvr2531
05-11-2005, 03:54 PM
If she were employed in the secular world, I would agree. However, she is not, and she knew or should have known that going in. Apparently, her Seventh-day Adventist education didn't stick.

When I was in the seventh grade, our teacher left in the middle of the year because she was unmarried and became pregnant. Damn shame. She really was a student favorite. And one of the strongest women I've ever seen. This was at a Detroit Catholic school, circa 1982.

It's pretty obvious that the school has the right to fire her for this sort of thing, especially if it was specifically spelled out in her contract.

I do question whether it's actually in the schools best interest to fire her though.

Oblong
05-11-2005, 03:57 PM
no brainer. That school's for christians.

qsilvr2531
05-11-2005, 04:06 PM
You can be christian and still get pregnant out of wedlock.

I'd be interested to see if they didn't allow children of single parents to attend the school.

Motor City Sonics
05-11-2005, 04:11 PM
Private school - they have their own rules.

If this was a public school it would be an outrage.

Oblong
05-11-2005, 04:21 PM
The school should not diminish its integrity by employing a woman such as this.

Buddha
05-11-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Motor City Sonics


If this was a public school it would be an outrage.

If it were a public school, it wouldn't happen.

Oblong
05-11-2005, 04:25 PM
If it were a public school she could have gotten a condom from one of the students, who got hers from the school.

zimm
05-11-2005, 04:40 PM
they should've just stuck to anal before the wedding...

baseballbruce30
05-11-2005, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by zimm
they should've just stuck to anal before the wedding...

Again, it always about the ARSE ... :cheeky: :confused:

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
Ironically, she'd have been better off not telling the administration and just having the baby aborted.


Until she had to answer to her Lord, I suppose. Ironically.

billms
05-11-2005, 05:33 PM
Maybe she doesn't have one of those. Or maybe she has many. Or maybe he lives in her closet and feeds her marshmallows in her sleep.

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by billms
Maybe she doesn't have one of those. Or maybe she has many. Or maybe he lives in her closet and feeds her marshmallows in her sleep.


Maybe. Funny you should be so obsessed with marshmallows.

qsilvr2531
05-11-2005, 05:58 PM
Until she had to answer to her Lord, I suppose. Ironically.

I think you missed the ironic part.

billms
05-11-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by shabba4detroit
Maybe. Funny you should be so obsessed with marshmallows.

Marshmallows are tasty. Don't you agree? Particulary well toasted.

Buddha
05-11-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by shabba4detroit
Until she had to answer to her Lord, I suppose. Ironically.

Her merciful, forgiving God? Or your God?

billms
05-11-2005, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
I think you missed the ironic part.

Its a habit of his. We are all, ultimately, creatures of habit.

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by billms
Marshmallows are tasty. Don't you agree? Particulary well toasted.


I enjoy a toasted marshmallow. A properly toasted marshmallow should be the same color as a blond woman's tan in the summertime.

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Buddha
Her merciful, forgiving God? Or your God?


Either or. Only He would know what was in her heart. That the Lord is forgiving is not a license to sin.

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
I think you missed the ironic part.


No, I got it.

shabba4detroit
05-11-2005, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by billms
Its a habit of his. We are all, ultimately, creatures of habit.


Thank you for your considered opinion.

Rooster
05-11-2005, 07:13 PM
I'm suprised they didn't tie her to a cross and burn her to death in front of her class. Some of my family were members of that church and I went there for a brief spell as a youth. Hearing some of their teachings from my mom makes me believe that they are pretty close to cult status.

shabba4detroit
05-12-2005, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Rooster
I'm suprised they didn't tie her to a cross and burn her to death in front of her class. Some of my family were members of that church and I went there for a brief spell as a youth. Hearing some of their teachings from my mom makes me believe that they are pretty close to cult status.



Actually, from the account, it appears they have responded kindly. They don't have her teach, because they believe it to be inappropriate, but they pay her salary for the rest of the year. Christian generosity, if you ask me.

qsilvr2531
05-13-2005, 12:28 PM
Are the same rules in place if a male teacher gets someone else pregnant (not that I would guess they have alot of male teachers).

RobSk
05-13-2005, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Buddha
Her merciful, forgiving God? Or your God?

Forgiveness follows repentance...God's Mercy is there, but it's hard to get. You have to ask for it.

Rob

Amish Love Machine
05-13-2005, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
Are the same rules in place if a male teacher gets someone else pregnant (not that I would guess they have alot of male teachers).
At the (Baptist) high school I graduated from, a (married) male teacher was relieved of his teaching assignment because he was having an affair with a female teacher. I don't think he even got her pregnant. He also did the music at the church and was thus fired from there, too.

If the school is to follow the rules they used to relieve her of her teaching duties, I would expect that a male teacher would be released as a teacher, too, if he got a women pregnant that he is not married to.

Mattingly70
05-13-2005, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by RobSk
Forgiveness follows repentance...God's Mercy is there, but it's hard to get. You have to ask for it.

Rob

Which god are you working as the spokesperson for? Because you seem to feel pretty comfortable talking for it. Does that job pay well? Does the experience then allow you to get a job with another deity as a spokesperson?

Biff Mayhem
05-13-2005, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Mattingly70
Which god are you working as the spokesperson for? Because you seem to feel pretty comfortable talking for it. Does that job pay well? Does the experience then allow you to get a job with another deity as a spokesperson?



Well, now that Mattingly Murray O'Hare has chimed in, this thread is complete.

shabba4detroit
05-13-2005, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Biff Mayhem
Well, now that Mattingly Murray O'Hare has chimed in, this thread is complete.


Dang ... that's funny.:classic:

DTroppens
05-14-2005, 05:02 AM
This isn't far off from happening in public schools.
In one of the school districts I cover for sports the school is trying to create guidelines about relationships between administrators in the school because one occured in the district. I actually knew both of them and from the times I saw them (which admittedly usually wasn't during the regular school day but during athletic events) I never saw them do anything out of the ordinary. In fact I hardly ever saw them together.

Mattingly70
05-14-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Biff Mayhem
Well, now that Mattingly Murray O'Hare has chimed in, this thread is complete.

No, a thread's not complete until you lose your cool and try to ban someone, Biff.

Biff Mayhem
05-14-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Mattingly70
No, a thread's not complete until you lose your cool and try to ban someone, Biff.

Yah, because that happens in every religion thread, right? There's only "Pavlov's dog" in the religion threads.

Mattingly70
05-14-2005, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Biff Mayhem
Yah, because that happens in every religion thread, right? There's only "Pavlov's dog" in the religion threads.

No just everytime you lose your cool and want to silence me. We all have threads that we predictably respond to. Start a thread about the media and Oblong will come running. Post an ignorant joke and you'll invariably chime in with how great it is. What's your point? I have an idea; put me on ignore and we'll both be happier. I'd do it to you but somehow you're a moderator.

Biff Mayhem
05-14-2005, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Mattingly70
I'd do it to you but somehow you're a moderator.

Chafes ya, doesn't it? :cool:

Rooster
05-15-2005, 12:37 AM
Moderators are like wives: You can't live with them, and you can't kill them.

I prefer to be outside the circle, personally.

Biff Mayhem
05-15-2005, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Mattingly70
No just everytime you lose your cool and want to silence me. We all have threads that we predictably respond to. Start a thread about the media and Oblong will come running. Post an ignorant joke and you'll invariably chime in with how great it is. What's your point?

I thought about this later. The difference is that we don't "run to" those threads with the intention of belittling others and spreading vitriol.

I think this still stands true when someone said:


Mattingly70 - I have yet to see anything in your 6000+ post that imply that you add anything to this community. Maybe they would enjoy your snotty and negative comments on every issue on the Rob Parker web site. I feel like an idiot even responding to you.

Mattingly70
05-15-2005, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Biff Mayhem
I thought about this later. The difference is that we don't "run to" those threads with the intention of belittling others and spreading vitriol.


You're thinking about this "later" and I'm the one who got "chafed"? Chafed is you trying to ban me and getting slapped down. Try not to take your work home with you, pal.

You'd never "belittle others"? Thanks for the early morning laugh.

You save quotes about me? Does anyone know how hard it is to get personal protection order?

RobSk
05-17-2005, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Mattingly70
Which god are you working as the spokesperson for? Because you seem to feel pretty comfortable talking for it. Does that job pay well? Does the experience then allow you to get a job with another deity as a spokesperson?

Did you actually want to talk to me, or did you just want to hear yourself?

If you have an actual question, please feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

Rob

Mattingly70
05-17-2005, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by RobSk
Did you actually want to talk to me, or did you just want to hear yourself?

If you have an actual question, please feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

Rob

No, as you astutely recognized my questions were not sincere, but were rather meant to highlight the presumptuous nature of your post

RobSk
05-17-2005, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Mattingly70
No, as you astutely recognized my questions were not sincere, but were rather meant to highlight the presumptuous nature of your post

I don't think I'm being all that presumptuous.

As each of us lives life, don't we make our best effort to understand the fundamental questions? I presume that you do. I try.

When I make a statement about the nature of grace, or the nature of mercy, or indeed, the nature of God, it's based on my best effort to understand the answers to those questions.

Why is that presumptuous? Is it because I didn't put the appropriate disclaimer?

Here, let me try one:

I'm not God, so don't anyone go thinking I am. :)

Rob

qsilvr2531
05-17-2005, 02:37 PM
It was presumptuous of you to assume that the answers you've found are the right ones. :classic:

Heck, its pretty presumptuous to even assume we know the right questions to ask for that matter.

billms
05-17-2005, 05:00 PM
Lots of people do not try to answer any fundamental questions. Some of them do this because they have faith that it will work out right, some because they don't believe there are any fundamental questions.

Joe Gahona
05-17-2005, 05:10 PM
And some because they are lazy and brainless.

RobSk
05-17-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
It was presumptuous of you to assume that the answers you've found are the right ones. :classic:

Heck, its pretty presumptuous to even assume we know the right questions to ask for that matter.

I know you put a smiley, but I'll semi-address that anyway, since I've actually had people say that to me.

My question for them has always been: What should I do? Assume that I'm wrong? What's the purpose of trying to understand something if you assume that any knowledge you gain or conclusions you come to are wrong?

Who said I assumed they were the right questions? They are the questions that occur to me, and seem important. So I try to seek out answer to them, and evaluate each as they come.

If that's presumptuous, then I guess I am guilty as charged.

For most of human history, it's been called philosophy or theology.

Rob

RobSk
05-17-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by billms
Lots of people do not try to answer any fundamental questions. Some of them do this because they have faith that it will work out right, some because they don't believe there are any fundamental questions.

Bill,

Isn't the question as to whether or not there are any fundamental questions a fundamental question? How can you "believe" that there are no fundamental questions if you haven't asked yourself that question?

I know you didn't reference faith in God specifically, but: Faith in God is not the absence of asking questions. It's an act of the human will. You don't have faith the way you have measles. You have faith the way you choose Ford over Chevy. It's a conscious act.

I assume that anyone I'm discussing religion or philosophy with, no matter what direction they come from, is at least coming at the issues honestly and in good...faith. :)

Rob

qsilvr2531
05-17-2005, 05:30 PM
My question for them has always been: What should I do? Assume that I'm wrong? What's the purpose of trying to understand something if you assume that any knowledge you gain or conclusions you come to are wrong?

Every good scientist understands the uncertainty of his own measurements. Which just means, you can think that you are right while still realising that you actually aren't.

I put the smiley there because I thought it was obvious that you thought you were right though. If you thought you were wrong, why would you even post.

I also wonder if there isn't some presumption in assuming that there is only one correct answer, but I'm not sure that you've really done that.


Who said I assumed they were the right questions? They are the questions that occur to me, and seem important. So I try to seek out answer to them, and evaluate each as they come.

If you didn't think they were the right questions, you'd try to come up with different ones (or at least I would). Or you'd be admiting to yourself you are wasting your time answering the wrong question, which seems counter productive.

RobSk
05-17-2005, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
Every good scientist understands the uncertainty of his own measurements. Which just means, you can think that you are right while still realising that you actually aren't.

I put the smiley there because I thought it was obvious that you thought you were right though. If you thought you were wrong, why would you even post.

I also wonder if there isn't some presumption in assuming that there is only one correct answer, but I'm not sure that you've really done that.


It depends on the question/issue involved. I do believe that a question can't possibly have two correct answers that are mutually contradictory.



If you didn't think they were the right questions, you'd try to come up with different ones (or at least I would). Or you'd be admiting to yourself you are wasting your time answering the wrong question, which seems counter productive.

No doubt. I don't think they are the wrong questions. However, I'm not always quite so sure that I'm pursuing the answers to the most important questions.

Rob

qsilvr2531
05-17-2005, 05:42 PM
It depends on the question/issue involved. I do believe that a question can't possibly have two correct answers that are mutually contradictory.

I've seen some math theories that suggests otherwise, at least in the sense that if one is true then the other can't be, but it can be demonstrated that both are individually true. Of course, it's a level of math that I think is so abstract as to have no real value to me, but maybe I just tell myself that because I don't really understand it. :classic:

billms
05-17-2005, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Joe Gahona
And some because they are lazy and brainless.

Yes indeed. Though given the spit dripping down the chins of some of the religious gangs I see on televangist TV I think you've got the arrow pointing in the wrong direction.

billms
05-17-2005, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by RobSk
Bill,

Isn't the question as to whether or not there are any fundamental questions a fundamental question? How can you "believe" that there are no fundamental questions if you haven't asked yourself that question?

I assume that anyone I'm discussing religion or philosophy with, no matter what direction they come from, is at least coming at the issues honestly and in good...faith. :)

Rob

Some people don't believe that the question of whether there are such questions is fundamental to anything. They strive to live in each moment not looking for deeper answers to questions that they don't recognize as important. I've met such people - I think thats a part of buddism (sp) as well but I'm really not sure. And I don't think such a view is a lack of good faith in the discussion at all. Now Joes' responce I think fits your bill! :classic:

billms
05-17-2005, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by qsilvr2531
I've seen some math theories that suggests otherwise, at least in the sense that if one is true then the other can't be, but it can be demonstrated that both are individually true. Of course, it's a level of math that I think is so abstract as to have no real value to me, but maybe I just tell myself that because I don't really understand it. :classic:

You mean like infinity being bigger than any other number (by definition), except that there are some infinities that are bigger than others?

RobSk
05-17-2005, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by billms
Some people don't believe that the question of whether there are such questions is fundamental to anything. They strive to live in each moment not looking for deeper answers to questions that they don't recognize as important. I've met such people - I think thats a part of buddism (sp) as well but I'm really not sure. And I don't think such a view is a lack of good faith in the discussion at all. Now Joes' responce I think fits your bill! :classic:

Not to absurdly belabor the point, but it seems reasonable to guess that for a person to arrive at this point, there was probably a rational process one could describe as "asking yourself a question". Right?

FWIW, I didn't think you were acting in bad faith, and didn't mean to imply it.

On the other hand, perhaps the "spit dripping down the chin" thing was a tad over the top. Where I am, the only spit dripping is going onto the bib of my 8 month old. :)

Rob

Joe Gahona
05-17-2005, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by billms
I think you've got the arrow pointing in the wrong direction.

I didn't point an arrow at anyone.

qsilvr2531
05-18-2005, 10:43 AM
You mean like infinity being bigger than any other number (by definition), except that there are some infinities that are bigger than others?

No, not really. Then again, I'm not sure there really are infinities bigger than other infinities, though I've heard that kind of simplification made at times.

billms
05-18-2005, 12:55 PM
There are - Cantor proved it - its pretty simple and elegant actually.